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Subject: Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers
Ghostrider    12/21/2005 3:14:29 PM
So I thought I would start my thread on what you all think, when you hear the word Waffen SS. I guess I want to know if you believe everything you see on the History and Discovery Channel or if you actually take the time to do some research. Let it be known that War is hell, and atrocities are commited by both sides, either maybe because of emotion or poor intelligence. Lets see how many on this forum actually know what it is they are talking about.
 
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Commander    RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers   1/2/2006 3:27:48 AM
Their is a saying that "war brings the worst out of people" and atrocities happen in war. The stresses of war brings soldiers to rape and loot an area. About the Waffen SS I read that they were supposed to be the best troops that Germany has to offer and that they were the personal favorite of Hitler. They were men who were said to be pure blooded Germans. The requirements to be a member of the SS is to be 5'9 in height, blue-eyed and to have a record of German blood to the 1700's. The SS committed atrcocities through orders and did it without conscience if you would look at their famous atrocities. The destruction of Lidice in Czechoslovakia and the one Holocaust
 
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Ghostrider    RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers   1/3/2006 4:25:10 PM
Your right "Commander" the Waffen SS did have standards in the begining, but later as the war progressed these standards were done away with, as over half of the Waffen SS were from all over Western and Eastern Europe from Spain to the Ukraine. You are also right Commander that War brings out the worst in people. This is to be said for both Allied and Axis forces, however I think the Japanese did some extremely ghastly things in China and Burma with its POW's and experimentations...even more so then the Germans. However that is off the subject regarding the Waffen SS. I wanted to talk about how the Waffen SS mostly the 1SS, 2SS, 3SS, 5SS time and time again were able to cause so much damage when they were out numbered time and time again. Casualties were high but they had a fighting spirit and comradery that kept them together, even though they knew it may be all for nothing. Many fled to the Frech foreign Legion seeking new lives.
 
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BasinBictory    RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers   1/3/2006 4:45:26 PM
Just echoing what Ghostrider said. Originally, the SS were pure-blooded Aryans, and were supposed to be the embodiment of Hitler's "supermen" (i.e. tall, blond, good-looking, politically fervent, and pure of blood and heart) As Hitler's personal army, they did receive a disproportionate amount of the latest and best equipment and training resources, and for many of their units, displayed a ferocity in combat euqalled only by certain regular Wehrmacht units. As Ghostrider mentioned, the more famous ones were the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th SS Panzer divisions. As the war wore on, the recruiting requirements of the SS slackened somewhat, even to the degree that the SS Handschar division (21st or 22nd, CMIIR) was formed in the Balkans and as such, most of its rank and file were Slavic in origin, and some were even Muslims. It should also be noted that SS divisions other than the aforementioned 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th generally performed less ably in combat than most Wehrmacht divisions. Pretty much this was a phenomenon of reality not living up to reputation. The Waffen SS, although politically indoctrinated, understood the real face of war better than their death camp-running brethren, and so were probably not as inclined toward mindless cruelty. I believe that most of the Waffen SS performed in combat with great bravery and skill, and were not any more wanton in their killing than many other troops of their era. The Japanese, as mentioned before, were some of the most cruel and sadistic soldiers since Genghis Khan's hordes.
 
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S-2    RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers   1/4/2006 8:29:21 AM
"It should also be noted that SS divisions other than the aforementioned 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th generally performed less ably in combat than most Wehrmacht divisions. Pretty much this was a phenomenon of reality not living up to reputation." I'd tend to disagree with this comment to the extent that the combat performance of Hohenstauffen, Frundsburg, Nordland, and Hitlerjugend was equal, or nearly so, to the best wehrmacht divisions. Too, the Latvian S.S. divisions (15th and 19th S.S. Grenadier divisions) were considered exceptional in the Narva River battles of summer-fall, 1944, as was the ukrainian division (14th S.S. Grenadier Div.)and the estonian 20th S.S. Grenadier Division. Admittedly, the bosnian catholic/moslem troops were both militarily unreliable and morally corrupt, being responsible for a number of partisan related atrocities. The notion that the premier divisions didn't have an unduly amount of blood on their hands, however, is just plain wrong. Totenkopf, Liebstandarte, Das Reich, and Hitlerjugend all had noteworthy instances of cruel and inhumane behavior, many of which were not committed on the eastern front. I've, however, never noted any mention of 5th S.S. Panzer Div. (Viking). They may be the only early division without a notable incident of which I'm aware. The political flavor of national socialism was imbued in the war-ethic of the Waffen S.S, with all the consequent barbarity. To think otherwise is misinformed, misleading, and falsely apologetic. That ethic was grounded, particularly against the Soviet Union, as a race war, and the Waffen S.S. were the vanguard of a new order. The level of enmity that existed between two totalitarian states, with troops on both sides highly indoctrinated against their opponents can't be understood in the west. That much I'd agree to. Moreover, there should be no illusions about the conduct of the troops of the Soviet Union, whose only defense against the countless atrocities which they committed being ultimate victory. Still, on the whole, the aforementioned divisions were exceptional warriors by any standard. That these divisions were particularly favored with equipment only came after two years of exceptional combat performance in Poland, France, Greece, and Russia, and frankly differed little in the favor displayed to Grossdeutschland, Herman Goring, Panzer Lehr, 1st Panzer, and Ferdanhalle divisions, and the Fuhrer Grenadier and Fuhrer Begleit brigades. My gut tells me that, in summary, these were bad-assed guys. Capture by them could by quite problematic, even as a western soldier. That there were superb officers and troops among these units is of little doubt. That a greater proportion of their troops, however, would, and did willingly engage in many heinous and wanton acts of barbarity should not be forgotten nor dismissed.
 
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Ghostrider    RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers   1/4/2006 12:15:29 PM
as a Renactor of the 9th SS, I did not mention all the elite Waffen SS division, as I was only making a point. However S2 thank you for assisting me in getting my point accross, those divisions did deserve to be ranked amongst the elite, even if their time in service was not as long as the four core Waffen SS divisions.
 
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Ghostrider    RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers   1/4/2006 12:25:39 PM
I dont think any actual historian would try and dismiss, any accounts of what you would call barbaric action. War is war... its cruel, bloody and full or rage and emotion. Im not defending the Waffen SS, in their actions, im just stating they are not the only branch of service that commited crimes against there fellow man. The Brits in Normady in some instances would shoot a Waffen SS man, even if he was surrendering just because he wore the runes of the SS, and likewise with the US. There are actually many accounts of the Waffen SS treating Allied POW's with care and humanity. We could go on and on, about this subject, but my last thought about this is the Waffen SS, and the other elite Wermacht divisions fought well and with great consideration with their foe, however I cant say that happend on the Eaastern Front as they both hated each other imensely, had the Germans liberated the Ukraine instead of sending them to labor camps and such, the Germans could have had another 1.2 million in man power strength, this could have possibly turned the tide in the East, but was not ment to be.
 
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AlbanyRifles    RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers   1/4/2006 2:11:08 PM
I believe that the members of Btry B, 285 Field Artillery Observation Battalion had an opinion on this. link link And it proved to be counterproductive since it stiffened the resolve of US troops throughout the Ardennes.
 
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Ghostrider    RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers   1/4/2006 4:06:00 PM
well alot of that material was printed along time ago, and its easy to get pictures of Waffen SS men on their way through Malmedy. I will get the info for you but at the time of the Malmedy incident, Pieper was not even near Malmedy, however since he was in Command, he was to blame. Again I will get the info for you but I believe the incident occured in Malmedy when Prisoners tried to escape, and there were shots fired by Wermacht troops, as they were now in the rear area of the German advance, I will try and get documentation for you.
 
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S-2    RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers-Malmedy   1/5/2006 1:04:08 PM
It's not about Peiper, and there's plenty of documentation about the trial, to include coercive measures by U.S. prosecutors against about 500 S.S. troops specifically charged with this incident. That explains, IIRC, the overturning of numerous convictions related to Malmedy. What's not in dispute is that S.S. troops, under the command of some officer, did, without cause, shoot those men. Therein lies the rub. While numerous Brits will attest to the humane treatment received at the hands of the S.S. in both Arnhem and Greece, incidents such as Malmedy and Le Paradis (Flanders, 1940)were all to common amongst the rank and file. That's why I said that your chances of surviving capture by the S.S. was problematic, even if from a western army. In fact, if you were French Morrocan or Senegalese troops in 1940, your chances, for reason of race, were not good at all. These were bad guys, subject only to the leadership, or lack thereof, of their immediate commanders. Meanwhile, don't even mention units such as the Dirlewanger brigade and Kaminski's RONA regiments, who eventually even sickened the S.S. leadership.
 
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AlbanyRifles    RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers-Malmedy   1/5/2006 3:00:41 PM
The source was from the official US Army history of World War 2 so if it was old its because it was written by the participants using primary sources and interviews. The men were prisoners who ran after they had been shot at. As follow on SS units were driving by several offices fired into the crowd of troops with their pistols then the SS troops opened fire. I find no redeeming value in troops who believed in a genocidal doctrine who willingly followed a deranged madman like a messiah. While the Allgemeine SS ran the concentration camp infrastructure, Waffen SS troops participated in numerous instances of atrocities.
 
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Ghostrider    RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers-Malmedy   1/6/2006 11:02:57 AM
well like I said, we can go round and round, and its seems like this subject is punching your buttons Albany. So I will just leave this last remark, dont believe everything you read, and there are numerous versions of what happened there.
 
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AlbanyRifles    RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers-Malmedy   1/6/2006 11:42:39 AM
A quick review of SS atrocities related to Battle of the Bulge, Normandy and Dunkirk BELGIUM Bande 24 DEC 44 34 Village men are executed by members of members of No. 8 SS Commando for Special Duties. Malmendy 17 DEC 44 Stavelot 18 DEC 44 130 Belgians (67 men, 47 women and 23 children) are executed for harboring wounded American soldiers FRANCE La Paradis 26 May 1940 97 members of the Royal Norfolk Regiment are executed by members of the 2d SS Infantry Regiment Wormhoudt 27 May 1940 85 British POWs are placed in a barn by members of No 7 CO, 2d BN SS Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler Grenades are thrown in. Survivors are pulled out 5 at a time and executed Le Mesnil-Patty 8 June 44 35 Canadian POWs executed by 12 SS Panzer Division Authie 7 June 44 40 Canadian POWs executed one by one by 26 SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment So going back to your premise of the thread, abuse and execution of prisoners and reprisals against civilians was a standard practice of the SS. All nations militaries committed atrocities but it was a systematic practice of the Waffen SS.
 
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S-2    RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers   1/6/2006 11:47:04 AM
"...and there were shots fired by Wermacht troops, as they were now in the rear area of the German advance,..." Wrong. That axis of advance was OWNED by 6th S.S. Panzer Army. Only the lead elements of Peiper's kampfgruppe had advanced beyond the crossroads, and not very far. Who were the wehrmacht troops that did this, from your sources? My sources indicate that most of Dietrich's army were backed up behind Peiper and making poor time. Those were S.S. guys, until I read something that clearly indicates otherwise. The only real question in my mind is exactly who ordered the shootings. There's pretty strong evidence that neither Peiper nor Dietrich did, but it was someone wearing S.S. runes. As for Normandy, the British reaction may be more clearly understood when you consider that it took 12th S.S. Hitlerjugend all of about one day of battle before killing some Brit prisoners, IIRC. How's that for a division starting off on the wrong foot?
 
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S-2    RE:Your thoughts on the Waffen SS, Cold hearted Killers or Soldiers   1/6/2006 1:08:18 PM
Ghostrider, understand my attitude about the Waffen S.S. I don't question their superb battle skills. They were, in fact, really, really good. While much is made of Sepp Dietrich as a former NCO (much, if I recall, by Von Rundstadt who seems to have had the habit of talking trash about many of his peers-none of whom he'd acknowledge as a peer)and Theodor Eicke, the vast majority of their officers were smart, aggressive, and quite capable. In fact, by 1944, the S.S. had developed a generation of young officers who could very capably handle a division or corps in battle. Men such as Willi Bittrich, Teddi Wisch, Fritz Witt, and Fritz Kraemer were incredibly capable commanders and staff officers, and much younger than most of their wehrmacht peers. There cannot, however, be any escaping the fact that the Waffen S.S. were a political organization first, and the product of an immensely brutal political system which was inculcated down to the lowest rottenfuhrer. Further, there is sound evidence of the movement of men through a variety of details, to include camp guards and einsatzgruppen, particularly in Totenkopf. Interestingly, Von Manstein called Totenkopf S.S. the finest division which served under him. Yet the blood on the hands of this division is evident to all. I say this as an example of the blurring that is common when discussing these units. Moreover, too often there's an attempt to disassociate the actions of the premiere divisions from the heinous activities of lesser units, until one looks at the chain of commands and realizes just how many of these officers rotated through various division posts, moving from one division to another. Thus the culture of the S.S. was thoroughly embedded and reinforced through virtually all the units fielded. In some respects, the fact that 1, 2, 3, 5, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 17 S.S. Divisions (the best, in my estimation)were so well equipped may have mitigated against the commitment of even more atrocities, as these units were routinely employed in battle against main Soviet forces. Units such as Prince Eugen (7 S.S.) and the 8th S.S. Calvaree Division had a more ruthless reputation owing to their virtually exclusive use in anti-partisan operations in Belorussia and Yugoslavia. If you haven't yet read Trevor Depuy's excellent account of the battle of the bulge, "Hitler's Last Gamble", I'd encourage you to do so. He devotes an entire appendix to Malmedy, which I've just re-read as a result of this thread. Well researched, it follows the incident with a superb recounting of the trial, the evidence stage prior to the trial, and the final sentences handed down by the tribunal. It makes for interesting reading. Peiper was assassinated on July 4, 1976 at his home in a small village in France by still unknown assailants. He was found dead next to his hunting rifle with a large number of expended cartridges of a variety of calibres about his body, to include from his own rifle-evidence of a hard fight. We should have expected nothing less from this remarkable man, to include the nature of his eventual demise.
 
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AlbanyRifles    S2   1/6/2006 1:20:58 PM
Good post. And my memory of Malmedy was pretty current also since I had reread Dupuy's book last fall and just finishe dmy annual rereading of Charles MacDonald's excellent "A Time For Trumpets" another excellent Bulge hisotry where he also provides a well researched telling of Malmedy.
 
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