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Subject: How Would You Have Tried To Derail The Final Solution If You Were Eisenhower?
CJH    12/21/2005 10:09:36 AM
The western allies seemed to have decided that the all out prosecution of the war was the only practical way to curtail the mass murder in the SS run concentration camps. I wonder if they applied their imaginations fully to the problem particularly if it was reasonable to assume that Adolph Eichmann and those working for him were open to the possibility that Germany could lose the war and that they themselves could then be captured and put on trial. Had the western allies proceeded to let the Germans know that they knew what was going on in those camps and that they were determined to revenge the mass murder no matter how long and how costly the effort, I wonder if they would have induced a great deal of circumspection on the part of the SS camp people. What do you think?
 
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CJH       11/14/2008 10:50:01 PM
Also, I remember reading once about how someone in a Gestapo or SS uniform showed up at a Gestapo HQ in either Nazi occupied Ukraine or Nazi occupied  White Russia. He presented a list of locals who he said were partisans.
 
In actuality, the officer was NKVD masquerading as German and the people on the list were locals who had refused to engage in resistance activities for Moscow. Of course, the Gestapo rounded the people on the list up and presumably shot them.
 
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historynut       11/15/2008 1:15:57 PM



It was suggested that weapons be dropped to the Jewish groups hiding out in the forests. They did a lot of damage to German troops with just a few hunting rifles. It would have been very interesting to see what they could do with machine guns, mortars and anti-tank weapons. They did a good job fighting the Germans in Warsaw. 





The problem with scenarios like the Warsaw uprising is that it brought very little strategic significance.  The logistics aspect of inciting resistance would be formidable.  Much easier to supply small arms and light antitank weapons than to supply ammo and food on a sustained basis.  (Guns become next to useless without ammo; resistance fighters become next to useless without food and medicine.)  To make any small gains by the resistance fighters to impact strategic outcome, they need to relieved by larger friendly forces..



Warsaw did tie up a large number of German troops. Since the German's were trying to kill the Jews in the forests giving the Jews guns would cause more Germans to die and tie up more troops. It would not be that hard either - 9 bombers with bombs, 1 bomber with guns.
 
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Photon       11/15/2008 6:45:18 PM


Warsaw did tie up a large number of German troops. Since the German's were trying to kill the Jews in the forests giving the Jews guns would cause more Germans to die and tie up more troops. It would not be that hard either - 9 bombers with bombs, 1 bomber with guns.



But it had little strategic impact.  By the time only the Vistula separated the Russians from Warsaw, the Russians were exhausted from rampaging across Belorussia and Eastern Poland.  This, in turn, allowed the Germans to crush the Warsaw Uprising as they did not have to deal with the Russians in central Poland for several months.  Meanwhile, not that the Russians had much love for the surrounded fighters in Warsaw as they had no allegiance to Russian-backed Polish Commuinsts.
 
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CJH       11/23/2008 6:03:55 PM
Why was it, as I have heard, that the Russians did not immediately accede to the requests of the western allies that the Russians allow access to their forward airfields to British (and American?) aircraft operating in support of the Warsaw uprising?
 
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Photon       12/4/2008 12:21:29 AM

Why was it, as I have heard, that the Russians did not immediately accede to the requests of the western allies that the Russians allow access to their forward airfields to British (and American?) aircraft operating in support of the Warsaw uprising?

The Russians dragged their feet and did not allow access to Russian airfields within reach of Warsaw until too little, too late.  The Warsaw fighters were pro-London, not pro-Moscow.  Meanwhile, the Russians were building pro-Moscow Polish army.
 
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Custer7       10/9/2009 9:49:40 AM
The evidence is quiet clear.  The Allied Air Forces were also very guilty of cutting supplies, which included food to many of the death camps.  Often this was deliberate, but an unintentional consequence of their efforts.  By interdicting rail and the transportation network it starved many in these camps to death near the end of the war.  After a hard winter the spring efforts by the Allied Air Command had an easy time in disrupting what was left of the Germans supply effort.  For those in the camps that were already near starvation the last few months of the war were beyond brutal.  When the camps were liberated is there any wonder there were stacks of starved to death inmates?  When we look at the emaciated faces and bodies of the survivors we feel that it was the Germans who had done this all to them.  But it not, it was in part, the Allies deliberate efforts that help contribute to their fate.  There are many myths about the German Final Solution.  One has been the absence of the Allies also being partially responsible.  There was not a lot of food grown near the end of the war.  Feeding the prisoners was low on the list.  With the food distribution systems totally disrupted guess what the consequences were?  
 
In total war is there any other way?  Would it have helped to drop food in the camps?  It would have been taken away. 
 
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CJH       10/10/2009 3:50:36 PM

The evidence is quiet clear.  The Allied Air Forces were also very guilty of cutting supplies, which included food to many of the death camps.  Often this was deliberate, but an unintentional consequence of their efforts.  By interdicting rail and the transportation network it starved many in these camps to death near the end of the war.  After a hard winter the spring efforts by the Allied Air Command had an easy time in disrupting what was left of the Germans supply effort.  For those in the camps that were already near starvation the last few months of the war were beyond brutal.  When the camps were liberated is there any wonder there were stacks of starved to death inmates?  When we look at the emaciated faces and bodies of the survivors we feel that it was the Germans who had done this all to them.  But it not, it was in part, the Allies deliberate efforts that help contribute to their fate.  There are many myths about the German Final Solution.  One has been the absence of the Allies also being partially responsible.  There was not a lot of food grown near the end of the war.  Feeding the prisoners was low on the list.  With the food distribution systems totally disrupted guess what the consequences were?  
 

In total war is there any other way?  Would it have helped to drop food in the camps?  It would have been taken away. 


As I have written in posts on this site, I believe that Germans had a moral responsibility to force a cessation to the war once the war's outcome was decided beyond doubt. They had believed Hitler unreasonably and should have taken responsibilty proactively by removing him by any means necessary.
 
I believe that it is reasonable to state that the time for this would have been by the end of summer1944.
Every war related death that occurred after this was a criminal act by Germany since Germany knew there was no acceptable reason for continuing the war and Germany could have unilaterally ended the war any time.
 
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CJH       10/10/2009 10:41:28 PM



Why was it, as I have heard, that the Russians did not immediately accede to the requests of the western allies that the Russians allow access to their forward airfields to British (and American?) aircraft operating in support of the Warsaw uprising?





The Russians dragged their feet and did not allow access to Russian airfields within reach of Warsaw until too little, too late.  The Warsaw fighters were pro-London, not pro-Moscow.  Meanwhile, the Russians were building pro-Moscow Polish army.

 
After all, the Soviets massacred Polish intelligencia at Katyn, etc before being attacked by Germany. But the West were not aware of this until later.


 
 
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Nocturne       10/11/2009 5:35:22 PM
good point about that germans would have  surrendered in 1944.. and i think they would have done that if not the fact that they couldn't surrender to the soviets. Biggest life saving scenario would have been to backstab soviets..and  negotiate german surrender in secret to the western allies..let the germans hold the eastern front for some time until allied units could move in and change them effectively blocking soviet advance. Quicker end..less soviet influence on post war Europe
 
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Mikko    My favourite   10/12/2009 1:41:10 PM

good point about that germans would have  surrendered in 1944.. and i think they would have done that if not the fact that they couldn't surrender to the soviets. Biggest life saving scenario would have been to backstab soviets..and  negotiate german surrender in secret to the western allies..let the germans hold the eastern front for some time until allied units could move in and change them effectively blocking soviet advance. Quicker end..less soviet influence on post war Europe

That's my favorite scenario! I've also figured that Germans could've done that unilaterally, without western allied even playing along. They just could've started mass troop transports to the east and left only troops to buy time for the withdrawal on the western front. Naturally that would not have been possible to do in secret but if entire Germany proper was for the allied to just walk into, quite unlikely that they would've said no.

Leaving Ruhr and major cities in western Germany to allied hands would've meant that the industry base was there no more. Entire situation might not have lasted longer than three weeks or so, so I guess Wehrmacht could've pulled that off logistically nevertheless. 
 
I like the scenario and one main reason for that is that it would've annoyed Stalin a whole lot.  I don't think the western allies would have been willing to fight the Soviets, but for Germany and especially their victims it would've been sweet.
 
I tried to figure how to write this without all those shouldacouldawoulda's  but didn't. How do you do 'what if' -scenarios without a whole lot of them!?
 
Mikko
 
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