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Subject: Force structures, and all that basic stuff
Penta    10/7/2003 10:35:26 PM
Hiya. I'm a newbie here. Please don't hurt me.:-) Anyhow, was wondering if anyone here could help me with a tiny set of questions I've had for a long, long time. Basic stuff, but never found the answers for. OK, to explain. In the rest of my life, I help run a small PBEM with a modern-day geopolitical theme. So, I keep having a need for some pretty esoteric data. Like this. Namely, I need the following. Since I'm on my last ropes, I figured I'd ask here. Asked on USENET, got some help, but still sort of confused. So I figured I'd ask here, hopefully there's a different knowledge base to tap. I've also gotten some useful hints on generic data, but I'm the excessively obsessive type and don't like using generic data if I have to.:-) Unit sizes OK, this sounds really stupid. But, y'know, I've looked. NOBODY I know in the game I help run (30 different people) can find it. I need the most BASIC info....Unit sizes. How many soldiers in a squad, squad in platoon, etc etc etc. I'll detail what I need here: Info for Infantry (Mechanized, light, and airborne), Armor (both # of tanks and # of people), MP, artillery, and aviation units FROM (all regarding current 2003 data): US Army USMC Israel China (PRC) Russia Jordan Syria Egypt France Australia ---- Thanks in advance for your info. For the edification of the general community, I'll TRY to gather all info I get into a doc file and get it posted to the sim's website at http://war.moonfruit.com. Thanks, John Penta
 
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Shaka of Carthage    RE:Force structures, and all that basic stuff   10/8/2003 9:34:59 PM
The answer to your question, people have written books about. Lets start with a squad. You have anywhere from six to thirteen people in a squad. And even that generic definition, has many exceptions (ie less than six, more than thirteen), that I won't bother to discuss. Then we move on to a platoon. This can have anywhere from two to four squads. The higher you go, the worse it gets, because of the variable number of units. See the problem? Usually by now, the thought process is to concentrate on a specific nations structure. Then you find out that nations have an official to&e that they are suppossed to follow. Lets assume they do. Then you find out that those to&e's are "officially" changed quite often, suppossedly because technical innovations have changed the requirements, but in reality, manpower slots are cut for budget reasons. Unofficially, there are certain to&e changes that leadership can change on thier own, with alot more freedom being given if you are in combat. Thats one of the reasons "experts", who study this stuff all thier life, have so many different opinions on what would appear to be a simple thing. Take something like WWII, where there is more information than anyone has the time to read. Ask any WWII "expert" the size of a German infantry squad and you'll see what I mean. After some more work, you find out that all that minute detail isn't really that important, as you now have discovered something called "combat power". Then there are the "hard" and "soft" factors that affect combat power, which makes your life even more difficult, especially as the importance of these things is relative depending on the scale (ie tactical combat vs strategical combat). Does that help explain why you can't really get an answer to your question? You really have to start with the scale of your PBEM before trying to get those answers.
 
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Penta    RE:Force structures, and all that basic stuff   10/10/2003 1:28:15 PM
Shaka: A little. The issue is that the PBEM I'm in, being writing-focused, has an incredibly...variable scale. Actions might well be expressed on a strategic/grand strategic scale, an operational scale, or a tactical scale. Frequently, tactical situations may very well be spliced in with operational activity and strategic activity, all in the very same post. Writing is, by nature, that way. The scene will often shift. But, anyhow. I'm currently playing Israel. I can find *no* info on Israeli modern/current TO&E. It annoys me to no end, as you may well imagine, especially since I'm a fanatic about keeping my posts grounded in a semblance of reality. Worse as an assistant GM, I can find no info on other Middle Eastern forces, and very little that I can put together coherently on US/UK land forces.
 
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macawman    RE:Force structures, and all that basic stuff   12/16/2003 1:08:10 AM
Source for general military OB and country surveys: 'Jane's Intelligence' country studies (on line, very detailed and very expensive with monthly updates) 'CIA Fact Book' (Very general country studies, geo-political, military, economic by country analysis. On-line and hard copy books) Can be found in most public libraries.
 
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WinsettZ    RE:Force structures, and all that basic stuff   1/12/2004 10:14:12 PM
US Army-Army squad is two fireteams (9) USMC-squad is three fireteams Israel-Assume derivative of US doctrine China (PRC)-Assume deriviative of WP doctrine Russia-WP Doctrine Jordan-WP Doctrine? Syria-WP Doctrine? Syria has a puny military and relys on stockpiles of chem/bio weapons Egypt-Modernizing. Probably still Soviet doctrine. France-Assume Western-style doctrine. Specifics unknown Australia-UK/Western style doctrine. Specifics unknown. Finding specifics will involve many, many first-hand questions or poring around the internet on websites run by ex-military people from the countries/branches in question. Specific TO&Es for units below battalion level is going to be very, very interesting for foreign nations. All I can say is, start your homework now. You might finish in a few years, if ever. o.o
 
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Thomas    RE:Force structures, and all that basic stuff   1/20/2004 6:35:34 AM
To make things even worse: Every time you move up a level you will find staff functions, i.e. subunits directly under the the commander. By the same very shaky thumb rule, that amounts to 50% of the units under the commander. for instance a division (and don't start Shaka on combined arms) has say 22.000 men and 3 brigades. But the 3 constituent brigades have only about 12000 men or about 4000 each. The residual 7000 are divisional troops: Divisional heavy artillery, supply, maintainance, Mobile Army Surgical hospitals, Signals batallion. So by going high enough you end up with only about 1/3 to 1/4 of the force as downright combat troops. Now you se why military intelligence is hardly going out of business!
 
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   RE:Force structures, and all that basic stuff   1/20/2004 11:19:09 PM
Cant help you with the specific unit sizes for the specific countries squads, platoons, etc., but I can give you the total figures for each of those countries. US Military: 1,427,000 Active, 1,237,700 Reserve, 8,023 Heavy Tanks, 23,661 Armored Infantry Vehicles, 10,646 Airplanes, 5,772 Helicopters, 190 Warships, 186 Support Ships. Israel: 167,600 Active, 358,000 Reserve, 3,950 Heavy Tanks, 12,670 Armored Infantry Vehicles, 575 Airplanes, 291 Helicopters, 3 Warships. China: 2,250,000 Active, 600,000 Reserve, 7,180 Heavy Tanks, 4,560 Armored Infantry Vehicles, 3,398 Airplanes, 478 Helicopters, 132 Warships, 258 Support Ships. Russia: 960,600 Active, 2,400,000 Reserve, 22,380 Heavy Tanks, 32,005 Armored Infantry Vehicles, 5,432 Aircraft, 1,870 Helicopters, 85 Warships, 518 Support Ships. Jordan: Couln't find it. Syria: 319,000 Active, 354,000 Reserve, 4,500 Heavy Tanks, 3,800 Armored Infantry Vehicles, 616 Airplanes, 181 Helicopters, 2 Warships, 12 Support Ships. Egypt: Couldn't find it. France: 259,050 Active, 100,000 Reserve, 614 Heavy Tanks, 4,084 Armored Infantry Vehicles, 1,291 Aircraft, 581 Helicopters, 34 Warships, 54 Support Ships. Australia: 53,650 Active, 20,300 Reserve, 101 Heavy Tanks, 619 Armored Infantry Vehicles, 294 Airplanes, 134 Helicopters, 17 Warships, 22 Support Ships. Hope this is somewhat what you were looking for. Wish I could chart it for you, its interesting to see a nice graphical comparison.
 
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