Ok this is my first time to post one of these on one of these forums and I hope I can bring some light to this argument. I?ve never really posted, I?m more of a reader but after watching how people reacted to the movie 300 my anger for stupidity started boiling and than I read this article and I couldn?t keep my tongue still.

 

So I?m going to give some information about myself because I believe in any argument you need to know who the person spouting all the facts or nonsense is. I hate people who just flame or try to use events in the past to lead the argument into a divided topic that will bring out the forum trolls.

 

I?m 24, a soon to be police officer, Greek-American meaning I was born here but I?m proud to be Greek, and have lived in the United States all my life, mostly in Houston, TX. I have a bachelors of Science from U of H. So now that you know a little about me and that I?m not some crazy person who just trying to flame about whose soccer team kicked whose let me give you some of my criticism across the board.

 

 

link this website gives a fair estimate to the war power of many nations around the world.

 

So I put Greece vs Turkey lets see what happens.

 

link

 

OK hold on before you get all epeen on me and say omgs the checks are more on one side to the other. Because if we did that we are not being fair to the argument that the original question stated, who would win a war in the Balkans Greece or Turkey with out any support from any other nations. This also means that it?s a stand alone fight with what the nation has. It cannot buy anymore supplies nor gain anymore equipment (man power/vechiles/oil?etc)

 

Also lets not forget about this question was stated back about 2 years ago it seems so lets refresh the question.

 

Who would win a total all out war and it cannot buy anymore supplies nor gain anymore equipment (money/man power/vechiles/oil?etc) meaning also it has to self support it self from the day the war started as of today April 3 2008?

 

 

link

I put the chart below so you don?t have to do more than scroll around =D

 

 

bbl = Barrel of Oil (1 bbl = 42 US Gallons or 159 litres)
Value of "0" or "NR" = Not Reported

Greece

Turkey

Flag               4,902,806 Available Military Manpower 32,808,029   4,019,207 Available Personnel Fit for Military Service 27,241,713   113,970 Average Yearly Available Military Manpower 1,338,824   847 Aircraft 1,964   4,403 Armored Vehicles 7,165   12,228 Artillery 4,935   1,775 Missile Defense Weapons 1,552   1,967 Infantry Support Weapons 9,631   116 Navy Ships 182   824 Merchant Marine Strength 565   5 Ports 6   5,687 bbl/day Oil Production 45,460 bbl/day   415,700 bbl/day Oil Consumption 660,800 bbl/day   7,000 bbl Proven Oil Reserves 300,000 bbl   114,931 Km Roadway Coverage 426,906 Km   2,571 Km Railway Coverage 8,697 Km   6 Km Waterway Coverage 1,200 Km   131,940 Sq Km Total Land Area 780,580 Sq Km   81 Airports 117   4,940,000 Labor Force 25,270,000   $326,400,000,000 Purchasing Power $667,700,000,000   $2,700,000,000 Gold Reserves $74,390,000,000

 

After I did some research at a French and Greek embassy I learned that Greece has nuclear silos in France, access to a few nuclear war heads as per agreement with the French, turkey doesn?t have any nuclear silos expect ones which belong to the U.S... I don?t know if we can factor ethical reasons but if you are Greek and or Turk witch I?m one of, you know that in a total all out war, our hatred would overcome our reason to save the planet and really use the nuke. Because ANY Greek or Turkish person will tell you that we have bad blood and in total war we are both mean mother fuckers and we will use any means, SAD yes and I don?t mean to be cruel but lets be real we are nationalists and thick headed so ya Greece has a couple of nukes but I will say its splits into 2 parts so lets proceed without the nuke.

 

Let?s review what this says, out of the total population of turkey if people who are edible men or women 27 million could be fir for military purposes. Now your like wow this is amazing number how could Greece ever even stand against this, well since I don?t know the specifics and this is purely guesses, I?m assuming this number is the total amount of people age 18-50 that are capable of still joining the ranks of the military this doesn?t mean much because as we see the active military is about 1.3 million year round. And to show you what I mean the U.S. military has 134 million people capable of being in the military, but only has 4 million!! Next lets pick a more militaristic country like north Korea, well it has 11 million available but only 382, 451 but would you fuck with north Korea no. So you see the ratios, I mean shit it all ties in because Greece only has 113,970 active.

 

(I?m taking the point of view of an invading Turkish force into account when talking about some points)

 

So back to my point, team G) 113,970 vs. team T) 1,338,824

OK we are now going to make a very big point here!! Look at the total land areas!!!

Team G) 131,940 Sq Km vs. Team T) 780,580 Sq Km

 

So the point is Turkey has space and Greece doesn?t, so the next figures will make sense.

 

4,403

Armored Vehicles

7,165

For a country with not a lot of space we have a lot of armored vehicles, but of course Turkey wins and it?s expected to because of the amount of space. Also I?m not saying what type of vehicles but I means 3000 more is a clear advantage here

 

12,228

Artillery

4,935

OK this is the big one, 3^rd in the world, for our size and budgeting means that artillery is a big thing in Greece, that is close to 7000 more than turkey ^_^ I didn?t even know that. If you don?t know what artillery is, artillery refers to any engine used for the discharge of large projectiles in war. (Special note I just read up and this is why the French government has budded with Greece for nuclear solos, because to my unknown knowledge we are good at throwing large amounts of payload at small targets lol)

 

Now I don?t agree with all the super Greek people who say you cant get into my mountain that easily. I mean ya I can see it from one point of view, but just think about this you have a small piece of land with close to 13000 artillery units?  I can see how invading Greece would be a taxing and difficult task to do from land. SO no matter how many people you have on the ground I mean the numbers don?t lie. OK this is perfect because now we get into the real warfare cause pushing with mass troops is so war world 2.

 

847

Aircraft

1,964

So invading Greece by land is silly because that would just give Greece time to bunker up and use its massive artillery to push u back. Wrong if I was turkey I would try to take out key areas with aircraft, and once again I can?t say what type each one has but this also come back to the point amount the land size, and I really thought Greece had fewer airplanes but dame close to 900 aircraft for its area that?s a lot!! But Turkey has to defend a lot more boarders than Greece does, which explains the 2000 planes. But because turkey isn?t well like a super good terms with its other neighbors who would love a war to spark their economies. And with that amount of airspace I can also say this, and be it as it may crazy coming from a Greek, with 2000 airplanes and more threatening people, I mean I can side with the Turks here and say they might even be better prepared to take on an invading air strike from Greece, or dish one out. BUT before my Greek brothers flame me, this comes to a another point,

1,775

Missile Defense Weapons

1,552

I?m not doubtful about Turkish missile defense its just I know that Greece spends a fair share of it on missile defense so I mean we almost have the same amount on each side, like 200 I mean is a lot more but not compared to the 1000 more planes to deal with and most likely both sides have good A.A. so I mean even if it came to that the A.A. is insane on both sides so its kind of stalemate on using planes I mean turkey has the advantage on taking risks with aircrafts taking out the Greek A.A. but that?s going to be long drawn out one.

1,967

Infantry Support Weapons

9,631

This one has to do with land warfare (anti-tank) and well I cant really say much to as invading northern Greece with even 2000 infantry support I wouldn?t risk the terrain and lose Turkish soldiers for nothing trying to get through some Greek narrow pass, but like history has showed us people try and fail or win at a huge cost to them. As for Greece invading, fuck that again I call huge losses for turkey invading but they got people, it be a long battle in this but I mean ya narrow pass, as for Greece, ya 10,000 ieds everywhere, good luck bringing in our armored vehicles, we would lose more to ieds so invading turkey from the north would be suicide for Greece too. Turkey would smash us if we tried to push them with tanks, for real.

	116	Navy Ships	182
824	Merchant Marine Strength	565
	5	Ports	6

 

SO come the next key for victory for turkey or Greece, to win this war its going to be the navy because, based on 2008 warfare, we cant invade Turkey from land nor can we air strike them we have to win the navy battle first and cut them off from sea, so we can bombard them with our ships. I know Greeks are very proud of the navy and it should be, because based on its Commercial Shipping Power of a Nation it owns once again being 3^rd in the world. This is why a lot of Greeks have pride in its navy we know the sea and its true and we also have the same amount of ports. He here is the problem, and I?m trying to fair on both sides. Turkey has 70 more possible ships than Greece, and I know that both nations have the top of the line on each side. But I give you 3 fair reasons that account and you have to agree with me or just say turkey would have the advantage, but here are my reasons, artillery isn?t just on land, its on sea too, so I going to have to pull the 7000 possible artillery from islands and ships so I mean 70 more ships but I mean a lot of anti everything. Since Greece does have more experience with the waters around the islands they might be able to use the islands as a advantage, and finally remember those merchant marine ships, ya well Greeks and Turks are crazy, and I can see my grandpa getting on his ship with some bombs ready to charge and blow some shit out of the water?.. dude if you are Greek or Turk you know our culture is similar and you know your grandpa is crazy enough to do it. BUT comes to final more logic point, star craft 30 battle cruisers vs. 50 isn?t going to be a happy out come, but 50 going to win. If it?s going to be a line to line battle. This isn?t, so I give the advantage to turkey for numbers in navy and they have a good one, but I give the other advantage to Greece if they come to our waters, once again you see a repeating pattern of who attacks who is going get fucked because each has a good navy.

5,687 bbl/day	Oil Production	45,460 bbl/day
	415,700 bbl/day	Oil Consumption	660,800 bbl/day
	7,000 bbl	Proven Oil Reserves	300,000 bbl
	114,931 Km	Roadway Coverage	426,906 Km
	2,571 Km	Railway Coverage	8,697 Km
	6 Km	Waterway Coverage	1,200 Km

 

Greece needs to win this war fast within the first 2 ½-3 years or hope for a defense turtle early on with turkey trying to invade from the north with wouldn?t happen, or Turkey falling for some silly Greek thing that would hang over their head for another 1000 years, and trust me I doubt they would let that happen?.again. SO a war of attrition I give it to turkey simply because they have more land, and if anyone has taken military warfare like I did in college, anyone with more supplies would want to drag the war out if its only fighting a one on one battle to diminish out the other one, like how the U.S. tired to do with Vietnam = (, epic fail.

 

$326,400,000,000	Purchasing Power	$667,700,000,000
	$2,700,000,000	Gold Reserves	$74,390,000,000

 

For Greece to have that much purchasing power means that its economy is booming and Turkey needs a boast and I think this is a huge factor for something other than a one on one war from the stated question above. I can see now why turkey wants in the EU cause if Greece is getting this huge amount of revenue off then I can only image how much more turkey will get if their economy stabilizes.

 

SO all of you have to remember that this is for the ENTIRE COUNTRY, the GDP based on usd, so for Greece a country with only at best 15 mil, and turkey with about 70 million and Greece has half it?s buying power, that MEANS A LOT.

1. Spend too much on military and your country will be in a hunger crisis, good luck getting support for more troops in a war where your country?s men cannot eat.

2. ya I mean, Greece has the money to spend on shit, Turkey doesn?t,, it needs to spend its money wisely or you may have the weapons but no one to drive them.

 

SO before I get flamed cause I don?t think I explained my point, well than just size it up for your self, Greece has HALF THE buying power that turkey has based on its GDP of 70 million to 15 million sOOO GDP is defined as the total market value of all final goods and services produced within a given country in a given period of time, in this case its shown yearly.

 

I guess Ill get into here I wanted to do it later but, talking about how experienced your country is in different terrain, let?s just say for god sakes that Europe and the Middle East has done its fair share of fighting with each other, and I know it doesn?t pass down into your genes but for sure people in those regions know how to fight and I mean its different here in the US then in like say the middle east, people have been living for thousands of years and know the terrain, and if you went to someone else?s homeland, your going to be at a disadvantage, because link

 

This is goggles Mountain Region mapping so as you see, it?s a bitch both ways.

 

 

WTF DOES THIS ALL MEAN????????

 

Greece cant attack Turkey it doesn?t have the troops or enough forces to finish them off, it had to recruit all it people and it doesn?t want a long drawn out war, so it needs to be turkey in a tech war, which wont happen any time soon. And turkey can?t just attack Greece because of heavy losses, which would hurt moral and it be broke at the end, even if it wins, Greece is known to rebel and well turkey won?t be able to pull off an Iraq. We know that Greeks would drag this shit out, and good luck finding all them 13000 artillery weapons?lol SOOO it comes to who attacks who and NO ONE Will so the answer to the question is NOTHING.

 

BOTH SIDES ARE SPENDING THEIR MONEY ON NOTHING BECAUSE NO ONE REALLY WANTS IT CAUSE BOTH SIDES KNOW THEY BOTH LOSE IN THE END?..

 

 

So now we know that a war would just mean lose lose for both, lets talk about a real war? I personally think that this would start WW3 if it really did happen that why with all this hatred on the internet I see, I?m kind of afraid for the future. If Greece really does have access to nukes and this entire spy shit from France. Greece and Turkey declare war?.EU and nato want to end it, no end in site. EU nations start taking sides with Greece or turkey. Russia and United states gets involved because both have inertest in both lands. Russia most likely sides with Greece, US sides with turkey to keep its silos and airbases, UNLESS pressure from like greek ally British or france lobby them to there side. Middle east get into it, Latin America side against the US.  OR side with their middle east sides, china and Japan I dk cause I don?t know the relations between them. But the SHIT HAS HIT THE FAN PEOPLE, SAVE THE WORLD KEEP the G VS T to a minimum please?.for shit get a live and stop QQ about the past ???..

 

Euro 2004 champions for 2008 !!!! FUCK U I SAID IT?. Lol

 

 

Its 3am and I woke up at 6am the other day, so if Im misspelling crap and grammar is low its cause Im half awake and ranting?night people

Dude, you're analyzing Turk and Greek geopolitics based on two bar fights you had? Mwhahahahha....you've got imagination, man, i'll give you that! Not sure if your analysis will hold up under the intense scrutiny of SP members though....

KK. Im a Greek-American (american born and raized), but i go to greece frequently and take a great deal of intrest in its politics, military and other aspects. FIRST THIS HAS TO BE CLEAR. Greece and Turkey will never go to war atleast not any time soon(generations) i think we have resolved many past issues and both are reformed countires to have a great deal of trade and cultural exchage.

 

1.Greece has build up its military forces for a defenive war.

  a. Put into acount a huge amout of artiliry, armor, and aa-system for a realy realy small nation.

  b. Our terrain is extremley dificult to manuver, taken from personal experiance.

 

2.Turkey is also has a very defencive built military, because of attacks from rebels and militant groups.

  a.Turkeys HUGE population.

  b.Larger airforce

  c.Larger armor force

 

Overall the war is a stalemate. Its immposible for any advanced on either side.

 a. Greece has  no chance of invading turkey. Just get rid of that thought. Not enough personel.

 b.Turkeys armor force is worthless in greeces terrain and would get demolished by its armor

 c.The turkish navy is slightly bigger than the greek navy, but then you have to put into account that the Hellenic Navy is one of the best trained navys in the world, ranking way above turkey.

 d. Turkey airforce means nothing over a nation were there are aa-sites spread all over the islands. And either way of dog fights Greece and Turkey both train their airforces EVERYDAY for reasons not known to me(extreme paranoia in my opinion).

 #so overall invasion of greece is nearly impossible and extremley difficult. Greece as i stated has NO CHANCE of invasion. Our military isnt close to big enough.

 

   * Now you also have to put into account the non-military facts

 a.Turkey is huge and is alot alot alot more difficult to manage during war. (food lvls will be lol, and managing both a military and public works( hospitals, schools, and any other central run works) will be extemely difficult.)

 b.turkey is constantly under attack by rebels and militant groups and is constantly trying to protect is borders to the west.

 c.Greece has nuclear connections but would never use them because they are to to close and will be affected just as much as turkey.

 = overall all out war for turkey against greece of a enemy of rivaling strength would end up more catastrophic for them.

 

And PLZ, stop putting ethnocentric though into these. Im greek but am takeing a realistic aproach to my thought. And either way NATO would jump in realy realy quickly in my opinion. Europe has to many intrest in greece to just sit back and watch. And the US would be neutral and wouldnt do anything unless its bases were threatened

 

Oh and just like the other guys said( i cant remember the name), dont stereotype people. Everyone is their own person, i know many greeks and afew turks. I have problems with greeks and turks but also have many friends of each. People are people and you cant base what you think of someone on what happend in a fight or what you saw from one or afew people.

yea, dont forget though, 30 mill are kurds and they dont like the turks.

Greece spends 7 billion on their military and has american weapondry
turkey spends 12 billion and also has american weapondry
both used f-16's but turkey has ordered 100 f-35's not sure what greece is getting i think eurofighters...whose better militarily and who would win in a war (two different questions) and another thing i would like to know who is better trained?

greece would make a great defense they have a great navy also they have aa missles on nearly every island and hidden army bases