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Subject: THIRD FRENCH EMPIRE: Can the UK stop it?!?!?!
Godofgamblers    8/24/2006 4:42:38 AM
Wishing to write his name into the history books, Jaacques Chirac resolves to establish the THIRD FRENCH EMPIRE.

He secures the agreement of some major Arab states (Lebanon, Syria and Palestine) to join a French commonwealth leading to a merger of states. Many other Arab states consider the motion, hoping to create a counterweight in the region to the US/Israel bloc and considering the sizable number of Arabs living in France.

As for Africa, Chirac decides to take it outright as part of the new French empire. Some Arab countries such as Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia will be allowed to maintain puppet goverments for historic reasons, however.

As a sign that he means business, French marines land at Valletta with CAS from 70 Rafales from the CdG. SEAD neturalizes Malta Int?l Airport. Malta?s Bulldog fighters are no match for the French airforce. Sorties are launched from Corsica and CdG to destroy Malta?s military capability. French Legionnaires from Djibouti land and take Hal-Far and other important military objectives.

Once air supremacy is achieved, Malta?s military forces are identified, targetted and neutralized, and regular French army units supported by 100 LeClercs land at the ports of Birrzebbuga and Marsaxlokk, sealing Malta?s fate.

Africa watches in shock as the French Tricolore flies above Malta?s Parliament. Chirac publicly proclaims that Malta will serve as the stepping stone to ops in Africa should some countries be non-compliant.

Coffee literally flies out of Tony Blair?s nose as he reads the morning paper: FRANCE TAKES MALTA IN LIGHTNING ATTACK.

For historic reasons, he would like to free Malta. However, a few quick phonecalls reveal that the EU and the US will not interfere in this matter.

In fact, the US is glad that the French will be taking a more active role in the ME and too many of their forces are engaged in Iraq to help out the Brits anyway. This will be another Faklands type war, Bush advises.

Chirac calls and tells Blair that he must condone and accept the French invasion publicly. Chirac will be beginning his Africa drive and doesn?t want any hiccups.

Blair stares into space wondering what he can do faced with this ?fait accompli?? If he chooses to rush to Malta?s aid, it won?t be the Belgrano he?ll be facing but the CdG in a warzone dotted with French military bases? should he really stir up the hornet?s nest?


The Question IS:

Does Britain have the military wherewithal to wrest Malta from the French without (1) going nuclear (2) receiving aid from other countries (3) attacking France proper (for fear of escalation)?


 
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gf0012-aust    RE:syrians gf0012   8/25/2006 1:29:47 AM
"Do you forget what the syrians did a few years ago when the turks massed on their borders as a warning message?" i don't know; what happened? " the turks were quite willing to drive over the border and start punching their lights out - the syrians were smart enough to change their political posture and back off. it strated because the turks were a bit unhappy at the way that the syrians were messing about on the iraqi border and upsetting the kurdish "issue". the turks would have and could have demolished the syrian military in a matter of days.
 
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rayott34    French take Malta, part 2   8/25/2006 1:41:18 AM
The French take Malta, Part 2 Tony Blair looks carefully at the military match-up between the UK and France. Tony?s serious problem that really unnerves him is that he only has two small carriers now, (he used to be two, but one has been de commissioned) and only one is ready to go to war now, as these old carriers need so much maintenance that one is usually up for repairs at any given time, and they rotate in and out of ?ready? status. Then there?s the dam lack of Blue Vixen radars, which used to give the ?Sea Harriers? some real punch and potential against other planes, but now the famous sea harriers have become so old that they were sold to India. All that the carriers have are the regular harriers, which are really just light ground attack planes. Damn, Tony thinks, our army is better, our navy is better, our submarines are better, our air force is better, the only thing they can do is put some Raphael?s in a place where we cant go as easily. Were totally stymied by just 30 Raphael?s and one carrier. Tony goes to bed that night and reading a history book that relates how the British navy managed to ready some light carriers just in time for the invasion of the Falklands fighting; and how they made super fast arrangements buy some American missiles for their jets, and he gets an idea. The next day he gives a speech stating that he chooses to make no comment on the new French policy of invasion. However, the press leeks out ?reliable? information from ?people in the know? that the UK is planning on doing nothing. However, that same day, various phone calls are put in place around the world, including some American senators and weapons making corporations, as well as Spain, Egypt, Israel and British military installations in West Germany. A few days later the major ports and shipbuilding facilities of the UK report large call backs of workers; and the MOD reports that new shipbuilding programs have been started, in order to further support the war on terror. This is confusing for the Press, as the MOD also states that the English army is scaling down its commitments in Iraq and other parts of the world, in order to reduce the ?cost? of supporting such a large force overseas. Two weeks later, British troops are angry to learn that they will only be getting one, two, or three weeks leave off after their return from overseas (much shorter then usual) and are put quickly back into combat preparations. For the first 6 weeks, all is quiet, except for the French press, which is alternating between pounding the collective French chests and criticizing America for its poor quality food, and criticizing the actions of the French president. In all the commotion, the French do not realize that a larger then average portions of the Spanish army are put on ?training exercises? just on the Spanish side of the Pyrenees mountains between France and Spain. But six and a half weeks later a huge UK navel task force leaves port. When news of a major UK navel group traveling south down the Atlantic worries Chirac, but the MOD insists that it is merely a supply and reinforcement group for the UK?s ongoing operations in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other operations in the Middle East. Chirac doesn?t buy this, because he sees that this battle group is composed of not just one, but in fact two British carriers, as well as the Ocean and other amphibious assault ships, more then the usual number of personal carriers then a standard rotate the troops mission for Iraq, way more destroys then are normally seen together; just what Tony would need to support an invasion. He is even more worried when he finds out that one of the ships is their new one with the super ?Sampson? radar that is not ?supposed? to have been fitted with weapons yet. He calls his navy on high alert, puts the main bulk of the French navy around the Western Mediterranean, and sends an extra 60 tanks and a infantry Brigade to Malta, as well as moving several flights of Raphael?s to what used to be Malta?s international airport, as well as some hastily prepared SAM sites. . Several days later when the UK task force is set to enter the Mediterranean, the French issue an order that no UK group will be allowed into the Mediterranean unless closely escorted by the French navy. That night at 2 AM the Mod issues an emergency press release stating that there is suddenly intensive fighting in their region of Iraq, and an entire Battalion of men are threatened, and they are sending extra RAF fighters their to support them. French Radar detect several groups RAF jets, including the Euro fighter as well as other jets leave UK and divide into several groups, some traveling south to Spain (carefully avoiding French airspace) and other going over Denmark and into Germany. There, they land and refuel, and then take off again, but this time not heading towards Iraq but towards Malta and the French navy in the Western Mediterranean. The French air force scramble most of their air force over the Mediterranean. Just by the time daylight is beginning to hit the water and the RAF arrives the to find the Mediterranean buzzing with activity. Old British SEPECAT jaguars which have been recently pulled from storage and refurbished with the help of technical assistance of Boeing and Lockheed martin, (nothing special, but able to fly and drop bombs again,) fly along with Tornadoes and other planes (escorted by a Euro fighters) fly in from Germany straight toward Malta and attack air and ground targets. The other half, the group of just Euro fighters that flew in from Spain; fly not towards Malta but towards the French navy armadas and the French air force circling above them. But the fist shot of the battle are not fired in the air, but under the water. The British and French subs have been playing a dangerous cat and mouse game, a game the British mostly won. The first official act of war is a British Torpedo sent against a French destroyer. The UK subs (sent out much earlier) were told that unrestricted warfare was to begin at exactly 5:14, and the RAF was organized enough to ensure that their planes arrived on the scene at exactly 5:20. In the ensuing battle underwater, the UK loses more then half of its sub fleet, but the French loose more then half of their subs, and the French navy is very heavily damaged. By the time the air battle starts, a few French ships are already taking in water. The air battle is just as fierce and brutal, with very heavy losses on both sides, but the British come out ahead in this one as well. The entire RAF is cut in half in one day, but the French air force still ends up taking a bit worse hits, and the French navy is further damaged. The Malta invasion force (the Jaguars, tornadoes and euro fighters that refueled in Germany) are also cut in half, but the Raphael flights there more then half destroyed, and several ground targets are hit, including the air port, and the main French supply depot. At the end of the day, the CdG is heavily damaged, to damaged in fact to support flight operations, and Malta?s defenses are severely dented. The remainder of the RAF flies on to airports not just in Spain and Germany, but also to Israel and Egypt; where supplies have been pre-positioned for them. The next day, as the UK invasion force is attacked by rockets and flights of jets from France, some of them are intercepted by British Euro fighter scrambling from Spain, some are not. The ones that are not intercepted discover that the Sampson radar on the new British cruiser really is as good as they say that it is, and that weapons have been hastily added on to it. Also, they discover that the British Harriers have had AESA radars installed fresh from America, and that their radar read is significantly better then the radar on the Raphael. The day after that, the British invasion force reaches Malta having taken significant but not critical damage. Chirac calls up the Spanish ambassador and informs him that he considers allowing UK planes to use their airbases an act of war; when the Spanish ambassador informs circa that when you factor in the recent purchases of Leopard tanks from Germany, and French sending so many of their tanks to Malta and Africa, the Spanish have a clear numerical superiority in armored vehicles on the continent right now. The invasion is bloody, and the British are not able to bring quite as many tanks or troops as France has pre positioned there. But, the UK navy is has clear dominance over the French navy, and the Sea harriers and the other RAF squadrons stationed around Europe and the Mediterranean are able to (most of the time) keep them clear of the French air force; so for a few days the British navy and RAF pound the French army on Malta. When the invasion does come, the amphibious assault is supplemented by the British parachute unit, which makes the first all out combat para-jump in years. Two weeks later, with both sides losing more then half of their force, British army comes out slowly winning. The French learn that the English have been working on refurbishing her third carrier (which was ?decommissioned? before), along with organizing a second transport armada to send more troops to Malta for that last final push, sees she cannot reinforce her army on Malta, surrenders. In the end, The French navy is almost completely destroyed; the sub force of both navies almost completely destroyed (not quite so bad for the English, but still bad) and the air forces of both nations are almost completely destroyed.
 
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rayott34    RE:French take Malta, part 2 (corrections)   8/25/2006 1:54:41 AM
The French take Malta, Part 2 ?Tony Blair looks carefully at the military match-up between the UK and France. Tony?s serious problem that really unnerves him is that he only has two small carriers now, (he used to be two, but one has been de commissioned)? Sorry, I miss-typed. Meant to say ?(he used to have three carriers, but one has been decommissioned.)?
 
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nominoe    RE:French take Malta, part 2 (corrections)   8/25/2006 2:18:19 AM
RAF winning against armée de l'air above mediterranean sea? you must be joking... your national pride clouds your judgment. and about naval air, harriers were already no match for french super etendard (within fuel range, not like argies ones), they are jokes for rafales, with hawkeyes support it would be a slaughter. in this scenario, french would have : airdefense frigates, hawkeyes, rafales. Unless the brits manage to bring on some frigates, NO CHANCES. the real battle would be around gibraltar. French will try to blockade and not allow RN ships to come. french SSN and antisubmarines ships would deploy here, and they would probably lose this one, with losses on every side. At the end, you would probably see a meditteranean sea controlled by british submarines only, the french controlling air space and though no RN surface ships could deploy. a draw.
 
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EW3    RE:French take Malta, part 2 (corrections)   8/25/2006 2:18:56 AM
This thread is as entertaining as any thread YAKEEPI would start. ;)
 
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rayott34    Tom Clancy   8/25/2006 3:12:53 AM
?and about naval air, harriers were already no match for French super etendard (within fuel range, not like argies ones), they are jokes for rafales, with hawkeyes support it would be a slaughter.? Don?t take it so seriously, it?s really more of a stab of fictional writing for fun. I was just really inspired to write by this thread. Anyways, In general, yes, the super etendards are better. But, this is a ?what if? thread, and these were imaginary SUPER harriers that had AESA radars put in them (and big red S?s on the side, S for super; probably could not happen in real life, but stranger things have happened) and modern long range rockets (amraam, or the meteor that has now been perfected in this what if future). Also, I imagined the bulk of the RAF to be Eurofighters, not harriers. Also, doesn?t the CdG plan on mainly having Raphaels rather then super etendards? I was more concerned about the match-up between the Raphaels and the Eurofighters, that?s a match up that?s more key here, and one I?m not so sure about. As far as the Hawkeyes go, I assumed the RAF would also have their equivalent AWAC based in Spain. ?This thread is as entertaining as any thread YAKEEPI would start. ;)? I agree, I think that we should start a creative writing thread, write up the novel jointly, and publish it as a Tom Clancy book.
 
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jean    very funny !   8/25/2006 3:22:40 AM
Hey buddies , it's only a fictive scenario, don't spit your venom ! Let's be obvious , UK has more than the edge on military statistics than france...but ! I remember a sentence of an old french rugbyman " england always wins but sometimes we beat them". In this scenario i think France could have its edge to UK. But this war could be a massacre with losses of men and equipements. It's not like Israel attacking Hezbollah. GoG forgot to mention Corsican airforce base ( solenzara) to be added. Malta is closed to tunisia , a french ally in this scenario, so that could count. Can Morrocco attack Gibraltar by air ? Do the spaniards invade Gibraltar to get it back to Spain ? ( he , he , that can count). Cyprus has UK troops , no ? so they can attack from the east. What about the knights of the order of Malta ? the maltese resistance ? and so on ......to be continued .....for fun !
 
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nominoe    RE:Tom Clancy   8/25/2006 3:28:11 AM
I don't take it too seriously, and i actualy find this thread very fun ;) anyway we all agree that any western country is not likely going to fight another. but it's always fun to compare materials! it's like during middle age, when innocupied knights fought tournaments, during (the short middle age) peace time. I'm pleased to see RN ships operating with CDG and MN ships operating with ILLUSTRIOUS. If robert Surcouf knew a ship under his name was sailing with an english battlegroup he would turn in his grave ;)
 
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nominoe    RE:very funny !   8/25/2006 3:37:24 AM
Gibraltar would be the crucial battle. yesterday i was watching the best submarine movie ever, "das boot". the U-boat attempt to go through Gibraltar is one of the best part. nowadays, what is gibraltar up to? what kind of equipments (radar, sonar, missiles batteries) are in?
 
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Godofgamblers       8/25/2006 4:12:42 AM

Exactly, nominoe.... the battle at the Straits would be the critical battle. And as so many naval battles have demonstrated, it is control of the air that is the deciding factor. from Pearl Harbor to the Falklands, the lesson everyone claims to have learned is that air power is the deciding factor. In the straits i think it is simple logistics that make France invincible in this scenario. the RN would not do well in its trip to Malta. It wouldn't reach Malta at all, in fact.

There would be no battle of Malta...
 
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Godofgamblers       8/25/2006 4:27:26 AM
Rayott, a great read! i want the film rights....! chapeau!
 
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neofire1000       8/25/2006 8:56:55 AM

"the falklands showed the effectiveness of french kit against UK surface targets"

 

The Falklands was a long time ago and the UK changed everything after that war and learned so many lessons. Materials for sailors kit was even changed after the crewmans uniforms on HMS Sheffield were less than fireproof, so we are not the army of 1981, very much improved.

"unless britain can bring some frigates" strange statement, there are 13 type 23 frigates and 4 type 22. Their primary role was ASW but have been adapted to work as air defence as well, also you forget the 8 type 42 destroyers. In the future the type 45 destroyer will be one of the most advanced in the world, current roports state that there will be 8 - 12 hulls, so it's not all bad.

I agree with the Harriers being underdogs here, again this is all changing in the future, to what extent no one knows, and anyone that claims to have hard facts here is talking crap. Remember harriers are old but mega versatile jets, in the right hands they are lethal in dog fight senarios. DO NOT compare anything with the Falklands, that was 25 years ago and times have changed, if it wasn't for the Falkland we would have no carriers at all, so again, lessons learned.

As far as subs go......... I think France would be in trouble here. The UK has 11 SSN, combined with one of the best ASW forces in the world........well I don't need to say anymore on that. Less comment on the Falklands because it can't compare to todays force, and even with the crap forces we had then remember that war was fought in the SOUTH ATLANTIC, took our ships 3 weeks to get there and in the face of terrible logistical problems, poor supply lines, our soldiers still yomped from one side of the Islands to the other and still managed to win in the face of much greater numbers and against a force close to their own home. Could the French comtinue a sustained battle against any opponent with grit and determination like the brits?? No one knows.
 
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neofire1000       8/25/2006 9:11:03 AM
rayott34 - you should write a book!! great read. Too many people getting wound up!! its good fiction.
 
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Heorot       8/25/2006 2:37:49 PM
Two questions.

1.   why the fcuk would Britain go to war over Malta. It's bugger all to do with Britain ans han't been for a long time.

2.   Why mess around with the Med. Paris is a lot closer.
 
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Godofgamblers       8/25/2006 7:20:25 PM

Two questions.

1.   why the fcuk would Britain go to war over Malta. It's bugger all to do with Britain ans han't been for a long time.

2.   Why mess around with the Med. Paris is a lot closer.



1. for 'historic reasons'. Malta has requested help and Britain would like to... WWII and all that...

2. Why not nuke Buenos Aires during the Falklands? Britain doesn't want any escalation.
 
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