Why do i get the feeling that Gato, is actually living IN AUSTRALIA.

 

Gatotkaca doesn't seem a troll to me. He is expressing a view commonly held by most Indonesians I've met, not statistically relevant but I suspect it is prevalent. It'd be interesting to pick his brain for point-of-view sake.

 

They does seem to be lingering "tribal" divide between Australia and its asian neighbours.  

 

Not that the aussies have resisted slagging their asian neighbours either: an ex of mine in the mid-eighties used to listen to a comedien who was quite liberal in his references to "rice d#cks", "reffos" and "chingers": very un-pc. His "fat" or "fett" related anecdotes being particularly amusing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That foul mouthed comedian sounds like Kevin "Bloody" Wilson to me.

 

As to our Indonesian friend on SP, I think he probably is an Indonesian uni student who may have studied in Oz, however, I don't think he needs to have lived/studied here to have these views.

 

No doubt (either way) we will pick up his tuition costs on his behalf. It's what good conquering neighbours do.

 

 

You've got to be kidding!

 

He said you have to hate westerners... otherwise you're a 'traitor' !!!

 

I've never met anyone with such a radical view. What Indonesian have you ever met who has expressed such a view?

 

If he is in Oz, I'm glad he's outed himself online. I'm sure the authorities surf the net and look for radicals. To think there's some psycho living in Oz looking for like thinkers... probably organizing a cell even as we write this.

So he lives in the west and is motivated by hate for the west... and anyone who thinks differently is a traitor in his books... sounds like a complete headcase. He could well be a uni student. Or just an Aussie troll, like I said above.

While the laughingly named 'act of free choice' was one of post-WW2's greater traversties of justice the Aust govt are great practioners of realpolitic (something that I don't think the US govt has worked out yet).  While many people in Aust are opposed to Indon occupation of WNG (with varying degrees of fervour) the reality is that the Aust govt accepts it and doing otherwise is all downside.

 

Indon military capabilities are very limited.  I'd suggest no change to the 1960s assessment of  'not capable of all-arms operations above brigade level'.  Some might argue that even battalion level would be pushing it. 

An interesting post, full of bile not just directed at the West, but it would seem at the political leadership of his own country....

 

What we have seen over the last decade has been trenmendous strides by the Indonesian people to:

 

1) Develop democratic institutions and practices;

 

2) Confront the corrupt practices that flourished under Sukarno and Suharto;

 

3) Improve the police and judicial institutions;

 

4) Address the anti democratic fundamentalist forces that would seek to redefine Indonesian society.

 

Countries such as Australia and many other Western democracies have happly assisted the Indonesian people (not just the government) in these pursuits, and I hope that continues.

 

And why to we do it:

 

Firstly, liberal pluralistic western democracies actually find it satisfying to see countries get up off the canvass and for the citizens of those countries tio enjoy some of the fruits of success that we ourselves have expertienced;

 

Secondly, it is to our advantage to see countries develop into stable democracies rather than being unstable dictatorships or theocracies.

 

Gatotkaca , I admire you fervour for your own country and people, but tell me, after you get that chip off your shoulder what are you actually going to be able to constructively contribute to your nation....so far it doesn't seem much.

 

But look, I would be happy if you could prove me wrong.

 

Trev

Good post ,Trev!

 

Glad to hear someone write something positive for a change!

 

 

 Something remains to be said in this thread.

 Australian achievement in its relationship with Indonesia is nothing short of miraculous, and can serve as a shining example in the World of failures, but is also a source of real fear for the future.

 The simple fact is that of the many states that were created after WW2, most have failed. Certainly few that were created by the votes of UN have escaped conflict.

 Indonesia is not a 'real' country, but one created by force from several former colonies that themselves were created from a number of independent states.

 I can't think of one post-WW2 nation which has remained as a whole in the past 60 years outside of Indonesia, and this is to a large degree due to Australian patience and influence. Certainly neither the Cold War superpowers, nor its other neighbours like Malaysia and Singapore have contributed to Indonesian development as a politically and economically stable nation.

 Australia can thank its prudence in relationship with Indonesia that Indonesia still remains a united state in a time when we are watching disintegration of states formed after WW1.

 Considering this, it is not impossible that Indonesia, in some not so far-removed future, may in fact fracture the way other composite nations fractured. In fact that is the challenge of democracy. In Australia this challenged is faced daily as states realise their role in Australia's common wealth distribution through a Federation of its resources.

 The problem with West Papua is not that its indigenous population wants independence, but that it considers the current redistribution of Indonesia's common wealth inequitable, and WP is not alone in this perception.

 While two Australian divisions cleared Borneo in three months from the Japanese Army stationed there, the prospect of intervening as peace keepers in the eventuality of Indonesia's break-up is not something either Australia's political, military or economic leaders would like to contemplate. This is in fact why Australia has put so much effort into influencing Indonesian development, but has not insisted on 'pure' democracy as it is understood in the European societies.

 Only future will tell if Australian efforts will be rewarded with a sustained development of Indonesia as it is.

 

To give people there due, I think there are quite a number of posters who attempt to be positive....that of course doesn't mean we have to all agree, but at least we can avoid attacking each other.

 

Trev