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Subject: why bayonets?
jastayme3    2/16/2006 3:52:26 PM
I probably brought up this topic before but why are bayonets issued? It is true that one might have an occasional hand to hand fight. However the chances are to remote as to justify issueing weapons specifically for them. In fact I believe that is acknowledged tacitly-some bayonets have a saw edge close to the hilt on one side I believe-to use as wire cutters. Why not go the hole route and assume the main purpose will be various and sundry types of work and hand-to-hand will be a bonus? A machete or a Gurkha knife* is useful for other things besides cutting people. Or simply a hunting knife. The only advantage of a bayonet is it's reach, which is irrelevant as reach is only an advantage in a fight between densely packed masses, and most modern hand-to-hand fights are likely to be suprise meetings by a few contestants(I.E scurrying down an ally and accidently bumping into a foe)in which there will be room to manuever around a long weapon and anywy no time to fix bayonets. Of course a hunting knife fascined to the end of a rifle is for a practical purposes a bayonet-and maybe the clasp adds so little to weight as to render my question academic. Still why not assume that they will mostly use it for cutting up, say, a pig they bought/stole from the peasants, and only rarely use it to fight with? Bayonets have a fine tradition and make a great show, but with know cavalry charges and firepower to heavy to make fighting in thick formation practical, they are obsolete. As a side note, why do they use assault rifles and modern bayonets on parade. Modern small arms, except for revolvers, and sporting weapons are intensely ugly. Why not use muskets and 18th century bayonets on parade? They make a fine show. *as I understand it's just a legend that they have to draw blood every time(they cut their fingers just to make themselves look scarier) and they use it for other purposes-killing sacrificial animals on Hindu feast days, but also meat-cutting, brush cutting, gathering fireplace tinder, what not).
 
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joe6pack    RE:American bayonets   2/17/2006 11:34:33 AM
Oh as a side, American bayonets are rather blunt by default.
 
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Iano_returns    RE:American bayonets   2/17/2006 12:33:39 PM
Rather blunt by default? How are you to cut with them? Unless you mean when sharpened, they do not hold an edge long. Or are a bitch to sharpen. Yes we have 1 or 2 guys who like to carry big knives. It just looks daft though. Its an utter embarassement if you're unlucky enough to meet one who tapes his sheath upside down on his webbings yoke! They never even leave the sheath (or indeed their wearers usually dont leave camp)! Bayonets aren't carried much of the time in exercise as their most important role isnt needed so you can get by with just a multitool. When they are carried they are blunt (unless you are in a theatre of war). But you carry them all the time, sharp(ish), exercises included?
 
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Iano_returns    RE:American bayonets   2/17/2006 12:42:47 PM
Do your bayonets attach to the muzzle of the rifle by putting the flash eliminator into the bayonet handle? Then there is a hole through the handle for the rounds to go out, and a catch to keep the bayonet on/release it. The blade is offset to one side of the handle so that the hole for the muzzle is central, but the bayonet can still be used as a knife held in the hand. Unless you have fired too many rounds with it on and its insanely hot! Anyone here fired with a bayonet on, operationally or not? I've heard they hurt your accuracy, not just because of the balance being different, but because the escaping gases from the muzzle can't escape the same. I've got little enough accuracy as it is so I'd better keep mine off!! It is also good when you have the BFA on for firing blanks in an exercise, as I was so charged up in one exercise I tried to fix my bayonet on (its in the section battle drills so not so daft as it sounds, plus the very keen and warry DS were watching and I wasnt sure how realistic they wanted to get! and with the adrenaline and heart going you dont think too clearly all the time) and it was only my BFA that stopped me. OPFOR wouldnt have been too pleased if I'd rolled into their trench with steel glinting on the end of my rifle, and I wouldnt have been too happy in prison!
 
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S-2    RE:why bayonets?   2/17/2006 1:05:50 PM
Albany Rifles might disagree, but I might suggest "for want of a nail, a kingdom was lost" theory of the bayonet. After exhausting their ammunition, the bayonet counterattack of the 20th Maine, at the Little Roundtop-Gettysburg broke the back of Hood's brigades, and prevented the rolling up of Union positions all along Cemetary Ridge. Who knows the final result of that looming debacle?! I do know that it was rendered moot at the point of a bayonet. Reason alone for U.S. infantry to carry bayonets with pride.
 
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Yimmy    RE:why bayonets?   2/17/2006 2:02:12 PM
"Anyone here fired with a bayonet on, operationally or not? I've heard they hurt your accuracy, not just because of the balance being different, but because the escaping gases from the muzzle can't escape the same" Erm, maybe not completely relevant, but I have fired a no.5 jungle carbine with the bayonet fitted, and without, and didn't notice any difference. Given that the bayonet attaches directly to the barrel of the rifle however, it will change the barel vibrations on discharging, and I would expect a slight change in point of impact as a result, but only by an inch or two. The SA-80 was designed to be fired with the bayonet fitted, balance wise, and it standard that all recruits should experience fireing with the bayonet fitted (I never did mind.).
 
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joe6pack    RE:American bayonets   2/17/2006 2:07:21 PM
"Rather blunt by default? How are you to cut with them? Unless you mean when sharpened, they do not hold an edge long. Or are a bitch to sharpen." I think by design, they are a rather heavy blade that's designed for utility more so than a "fighting" knife. It's of course just fine when used at the point of a rifle but more for piercing and ripping the cutting. They might sharpen up, although I never made a serious attempt at it. That's just my 2 cent opinion though, I don't claim to be any kind of a blade expert. "Yes we have 1 or 2 guys who like to carry big knives. It just looks daft though. Its an utter embarassement if you're unlucky enough to meet one who tapes his sheath upside down on his webbings yoke! They never even leave the sheath (or indeed their wearers usually dont leave camp)!" Theres got to be some of these type of guys in every Army... " But you carry them all the time, sharp(ish), exercises included?" I think it really depends on the CO. Most of the ones I had, had us draw bayonets when we drew weapons with the exception being for the going to the range to qualify. There wasn't a tremendous amount of bayonet training, we just carried them a lot. Like I said, I primarily used mine to open MRE's. There was training of course. Bayonet assault course every so often, peace keeping / riot training (the intimidation thing), and various other bits.
 
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longrifle    Mindset-willing to trade up?   2/17/2006 6:30:38 PM
I thought this was interestig and it sort of goes with the topic. Says loads about a combat mindset. Are you willing to trade up? "My khukuri self defense consisted of a strong offense of only three moves -- a head strike, gut strike, or leg strike. I always looked into the eyes of the opponent because they seemed to tell me what he was going to do -- perhaps lucky for me he always ran away. And, I conditioned my thinking to make myself to be willing to trade up -- I would trade a finger for a hand, a hand for an arm, and, of course, an arm for a head." --KAMI SHERPA
 
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Crystal Phallus    RE:Blunt bayonets-Iano   2/17/2006 7:16:33 PM
I know this might sound slightly stupid, but I was told on a few occasions that the reason our bayonets are always blunt is purely due to finances. Don't let people sharpen the sword and you don't have to replace so many as they wear down. It sounded such a simple explanation at the time that I always thought it was most likely true. Let's face it, boredom is a terrible thing, and a blade and a sharpening block is something to fiddle with. When the favourite squaddies activity for dealing with boredom is exhausted and you've finished polishing your personal stabbing weapon, I imagine many idle hands would turn to playing with the other penetrating device!
 
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Yimmy    RE:Blunt bayonets-Iano   2/17/2006 7:37:35 PM
"imagine many idle hands would turn to playing with the other penetrating device!" Yeah, but I wouldn't take a sharpening stone to it!
 
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Yimmy    RE:Blunt bayonets-Iano   2/17/2006 7:41:20 PM
And, I feel I must confess, I am one of those nutters who like big knives. I am not quite nutty enough to tape it to my webbing though thankfully! It has come in handy a couple of times to be fair. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Yimmy/Yimmy1/P5280022.jpg And you have to admit, as general purpose field knives go, it is quite funky. :D
 
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