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Subject: If the US Marine Corps, and the French Foreign Legion had a battle, which side would win?
Republican    1/1/2006 4:03:01 AM
I think the Corps would win, but both sides are tough as nails.
 
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Mex101    RE:contest   1/14/2006 7:15:13 PM
I forgot about that movie and thats why i said "I may Be wrong about never" Its not bad to fight with advanages. I'm just saying that the French know how to fight in less than hopefull conditions, that will make them a hard enamy.
 
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french stratege    RE:contest   1/14/2006 7:58:04 PM
Of course it is better to fight with overwhelming firepower when you can afford it but it doesn't prove anything about ground soldier performance and courage. http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/us-army-its-own-worst-enemy-british-officer/2006/01/11/1136956242189.html I don't know any battle where US managed to win in inferior position, that's all. So in a contest with parity it is difficult to know if US can adapt to win. "a vaincre sans peril, on triomphe sans gloire" "To win without great danger, you triumph without glory".
 
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S-2    RE:contest/Excuse Me, F.S.   1/14/2006 8:18:17 PM
S Whitebull has it right. We endeavor to specialize in overwhelming victory, vs. glorious defeat. Schnee Eifel? A rookie division and a veteran one (28th Inf. at 2/3 strength following the Hurtgen Forest) slowed down two Panzer ARMIES, without either division losing their colors. That is, of course, over the same ground that the Germans used to gut your nation in 1940. Exhausted or rookie U.S. troops vs. the cream of the French Army, fully expecting a war and eight months to prepare after the German invasion of Poland(whom you left hanging in the wind, btw)-and you still fell flat on your face. Kasserine? Big deal. Look at the numbers, then look at the German Army against the French in your first chance at glory during W.W.II- on French soil no less. Maybe you were outnumbered? No. Perhaps your tanks were worse? No, again. You lacked adequate aircraft? Actually, you had some of the best aircraft, and plenty of them. Perhaps you needed help? Well, you did have the Belgians and Brits there and, amazingly, many Poles. Did you need more? I know, unfamiliar terrain? Naw, that can't be it, can it? But then, what have you really done worth mentioning since Austerlitz? "At the conclusion of fighting around Kasserine, the Americans were able to regroup and repulse veteran German troops at Thala, Sbiba, and Djebel el Hamra." Wikopedia's very generic explanation. See, we relieved that corps commander, Lloyd Fredenhall, immediately. We don't often lose. When we do, it eats at our craw, and we do EVERYTHING we can to learn, improve, and not replicate. I just can't recall any similar "recovery" on the part of the French Army in 1940. Frankly, after that, you guys ARE an afterthought in military history. Let's not even talk about the debacle of Groupement Mobile 100 at the An Khe Pass, much less Dien Bien Phu. We got our object lesson at Kasserine, and used it to great effect. Please tell me when your collective arrogance has ever been put aside long enough to learn from your myriad military mistakes recounted time and time again throughout modern military history? Because to this day, listening to the likes of Grenadier Voltigeur or yourself, you might think we had something to learn from you. Sorry, we'll seek our mentors elsewhere. They're not to found west of the Rhine and east of the Atlantic. Oh, the list is soooo long- the Germans (three times since 1875), English (who can count the times), Vietnamese, and the Algerians. Then, of course, there's the lovely stories from 1944-45. LeClerc's boys drunk as skunks in Paris, instead of pursuing the Germans off your soil. I do recall some incredibly superb French troops from W.W.II. Juin's Moroccan GOUMIERS-but then, those are colonials. I'm sure that they'd resist the notion of being considered FRENCH, even if their officers were. Frankly (though nothing frank about the French), your nation could use some humility. It normally accompanies those being repeatedly humbled. But not France. Allies? Well, yes. We have been there for you repeatedly since 1917. Even when you lost Indochine, it wasn't without trying to get us more involved than we already were. Since Lafayette, we haven't had need. Thank you for you help, even if it had far less to do with us than sticking it to the Brits. Oh, and thanks for the Louisiana Purchase. Now THAT was a friendly gesture.
 
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swhitebull    RE:contest   1/14/2006 8:44:15 PM
...I forgot about that movie and thats why i said "I may Be wrong about never" Its not bad to fight with advanages. I'm just saying that the French know how to fight in less than hopefull conditions, that will make them a hard enamy.... That's the point - you dont PUT yourself in a less-than-hopeful situation, unless totally avoidable. Examine again the firefights that categorized Mogadishu. 1000 Skinnies died attacking American forces, in most certainly less-than-ideal circumstances. Contrary to the American press - and the Clinton administration - this was a classic battle of courage against overwhelming odds, where US firepower could NOT be brought to bear due to the Rules of Engagement imposed by the Clinton Adminstration. A clear victory for American troops, and should have been reported as such - AND the mission was accomplished. A true testament to the US soldier's determination and fighting abiliity under adversity. Now couple that with overwhelming firepower and the advantages of technology that we have. We dont go in looking to lose or put ourselves in an disadvantageous position. If needs be, we DO know how to fight - and win - against overwhelming odds. Also to mention - Frozen Chosin in Korea, other battles in Korea on the ground without airpower, especially in the beginning, and numerous firebase attacks during Tet during Vietnam. (Look at the battle of Hue as a good indicator). swhitebull
 
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S-2    RE:contest/F.S. Resurrects the Military Review Article   1/14/2006 8:52:10 PM
Have you read the article, sir? Many of us have read it thoroughly, and commented-see the thread in this very section. Don't even get me started on your nation's counter-insurgency record. The sordid histoire d'Algerie et les Indochine that France mustered is a blasphemy on any modern Christian nation, not to mention your MILITARY performance in both. Moreover, part of the reason we're in Iraq is to unsort the mess that France helped to create, and has done all it could to thwart us. Bluntly, your nation has largely lost whatever residual respect I, and many other Americans, may once have had. Moreover, it'll be some time before it's re-earned. See, it takes deeds, not pompously spewed words about glory, to make that happen. Something that you've noticably and collectively lacked for far too long. Deeds, that is.
 
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french stratege    S-2   1/14/2006 9:34:27 PM
Algeria is a french military victory with only 5000 FLN member most out of Algeria at the end of the war.We leaved because De Gaulle rightfully did not want muslim Algerians become French.And colonialist image damaged France in relationship with other countries at a time it was needed to win share in Gulf oil. On Vietnam war, we were not commited to do more as main threat was in Europe(Soviet union), post WW2 France was ruined and moreover independance of Vietnam was already granted since 1946.A limited defeat, I agree like US in Vietnam. Similar to Khe Shan except we did not have 100 B52 to save us in Dien BenPhu. Remain only 1870 war and WW2 agaisnt the world best army of its time. 1870 was lost because of inept leadership of Napoleon III and 1940 for strategic mistakes done by our governement and our high command with the British in an attempt to avoid mistake of 1914 (so staying passive and waiting for an updated Schlieffen plan).However 1940 defeat while well explained today by our strategic mistakes, is still a shame for us, we recognize that.However US and UK performed even more poorly in 1941/42. But I don't accept such critize of US which have never be confronted to a major power at its border (except 1812 : result Whashington burned to ashes) and has shown in all their history to have mismanagement at beginning of wars and subpar troops. The victories agaisnt Austria in Italy (Solferino..), against Russia (Crimea),China, WW1, ..For sure, we don't take our lesson from US for ground troops! Our nation may have lost its former glory I agree, but US can not really claim any through history (sorry).WW2? With 10 000 bombers and 10 million Russians ... Korea? A failure ...Keep with Grenada island and Panama.. Invade China ON GROUND with today US classical forces, and I would say I'm impressed. A vaincre sans péril on triomphe sans gloire.
 
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french stratege    RE:contest/Excuse Me, F.S.   1/14/2006 9:46:21 PM
BTW Juin troops were half metropolitan origin French and half arabs recruits. Well part our failure of 1940, our WW2 record (Bir Hakeim, Monte Cassino, Alsace 44, crossing of the Rhine and run to Austria 45) is very honorable considering our equipment subpar of those of US or UK with less much airpower support while going much faster than you.After 40 we did not loose a single battle or having a single setback.
 
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S-2    RE:contest/Excuse Me, F.S.   1/14/2006 10:30:50 PM
Sure, if you say so.
 
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GOP    RE:contest   1/14/2006 11:58:05 PM
>>US are still to prove that they can won a battle outnumbered and in air inferiority.It never happened.For the French it happened hundred time in history.<< I am not anxious to prove that (although we did in Somalia..air support was limited to helicopters and very few sorties were flown). France has yet to prove it can win a war while the enemy is in equal numbers. It has lost the last 2 that way (WW1 and WW2). Let's get real here, the quality of US and French troops are very, very equal. The USMC is probably not the best comparison to the FFL, as they are generally younger and less experienced (although the experience factor is getting worked out)...but they would probably do a very good job if they ever had to fight your FFL (the kill ratio would be equal). The Army Rangers are a much better comparison. Let's get over this "My nations troops are better trained than your nations troops"...the fact is that the US, France, Germany, and England have the best troops in the world (despite all the bs about France having weak troops). Bottom line: Let's be proud of our nation's troops, and quit comparing them to others, because whether we like it or not, we are ALL biased
 
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GOP    RE:contest   1/15/2006 12:08:14 AM
>>Of course it is better to fight with overwhelming firepower when you can afford it but it doesn't prove anything about ground soldier performance and courage. http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/us-army-its-own-worst-enemy-british-officer/2006/01/11/1136956242189.html I don't know any battle where US managed to win in inferior position, that's all. So in a contest with parity it is difficult to know if US can adapt to win. "a vaincre sans peril, on triomphe sans gloire" "To win without great danger, you triumph without glory<< What makes the French any better prepared at fighting "Againt the odds" than American troops? US troops have much more combat experience, so does our leadership...while current French troops have zero. Zilch. Nada. Lay off American troops, they have proven they are the best in the world by winning. Just win, baby! It's that simple...we can whine and gripe that French troops are superior, while US troops have won every war and 95% of battles it has ever been in, while French troops have not. If you hate that the US is winning due to superior firepower, blame your leadership for not getting you the same advantages, not us. What you are doing is like blaming a sports team for winning only because they have the best players. We have dished it out mano-a-mano, check out Bastogne, Chosin Resoiver, Ia drang valley (sp), and Hue
 
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