Comparison between the Navies of India and China

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displacedjim RE:Chinese Strategic and Tactical Challanges....part II 6/23/2005 10:10:37 AM

"displacedjim, I think that both sides were simulatingf fictional weapons. I doubt they used semiactive AAM. Also the MKI were not involved in 04 and Mirages didn't simulate MICA. So the article should be read with a pinch of salt IMHO." -- DBG ---- It is true they simulated fictional, or notional, weapons. However, the characteristics of those weapons were as stated: the USAF F-15s were limited to a semi-active AAM only, and at least the Su-30K were simulating an active AAM. The article clearly pointed out that the Su-30MKI was **not** used in the exercise. The article claimed MICA "use" on the M2000; I don't know about whether that part is accurate or not, but given the rest of the article is actually right on target and correct in every detail that I'm aware of through independent confirmation, I'd tend to give this point the benefit of the doubt. It could be that the M2000 simulated the same notional active AAM as opposed to explicitly simulating MICA. Displacedjim

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Ehran RE:Indian Ignorance of Weapons systems 11/28/2005 12:19:46 PM

two ships each with say 64 sams available for use. on a good day you are looking at 75% hits and without a good battle management system you will waste some of those hits on duplication.

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dabrownguy RE:Indian Ignorance of Weapons systems 11/29/2005 11:13:04 PM

Are you assuming that InN is stupid enough to sail into Chinese Aircover? Also I meant to say SAM not AShM. I know they have Moskit etc.. The Indian Navy didn't need the PAR for one. What are you that stupid? AWACS? I'm assuming that PLAN doesn't have AWACS sence they don't on open waters! They 052C should be limited to horizon to intercept low low AShM. Meaning 25KM. The entire PLAN has worse capability to intercept the sea skimmers! As for InN the fleet can intercept the missiles close in. But that is if enough PLAN vessels get close enough. The Harrier or Viraat is protecting the fleet. Also the BARAK is defence against AShM so is the KHASTAN! As well as the SHTIL I might add. And BTW whats this? link Also neither can. But the InN does have Ka-31. They'll have better aircoverage aswell as ASW. Also consider this. The InN has 3 Delhis with 2 rail launched Shtils guided by 6 Orekhs. Thats better than the 052B. Then they have Kashin III Class armed with the longer ranged Shtil with 4 Orekhs, and the InN has 3 of these. The Rajputs have the naval Goa SAM. Missiles not all that but the 3D Star is expecially designed to detect AShM. If I remember the InN has 5 Rajputs. The Shtil can cover an area of 35~40 KM. The fleet is already well protected against AShM considering the threat, PLAN. But thats not all. Most of the ships have their own AK-630 or Khastan, or Barak VLS. But to intercept PLAN's attacks the InN would have to get the missiles with in their intercepting range. The InN also has early warning; the Ka-31 that is equiped either on the Kashin III or Viraat. The Ka-31 woud cover over the horizon for AShH,Ships or aircraft. Similiarly PLAN does not have this capability yet! What else does the InN have? well... They also have the aircraft carrier INS VIRAAT. The vessel's air arm consist of Ka-31, Ka-28, Sea King and the Harrier. The Sea King performs the best ASW duties in the InN covering a radius of 200-300 km around the carrier. It can also be armed with the Sea Eagle AShM with a range of 110 KM. The Harrier performs almost the same task with the Harrier exept with a longer radius. It protects the fleet both from airattacks and surface threats. It deals with surface threats by launching Sea Eagles before the enemy gets close to the fleet to fire their AShM, assuming the enemy here is PLAN. Now I suppose you wanna know how can a stupid Harrier attack the PLAN fleet without being dystoryed by the HQ-9 of the 052C? Well. The PLAN lacks a important asset. AEW! The PLAN can not see the Sea Harrier if it is flyng below the horizon. It only needs to get with in 110 km to fire the AShM. If InN manages to knock out 2 052C then the airdefence coverage is reduced for the PLAN. Then they are sitting ducks to the Harriers. Now incase the PLAN do get with in range the InN can hold their own. They have better capability to intercept low flying AShM then the PLAN. Remember the horizon will limit the 052C expecially when her HQ-9 missiles could be as bulky as the S-300. The PLAN would have to deal with threats from Barhmos, Klub N, Switch Blades and Styx. The PLAN's greatest interceptor against sea-skimmers is undoubtly the Shtil on the 052B and Sovernmey's. I'm assuming all this that the PLAN and InN are not fighting on PLAAF's airspace. Because if they were fighting beyond PLAAF's aircover the advantage is InN's with her aircover provided by the Carrier and AEW.

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Galrahn RE:Indian Ignorance of Weapons systems 11/30/2005 12:51:10 AM

Good discussion topic mithradates. I would take India today if I had to choose, better equipment does not guarantee victory, and after the Russia/China exercises this past summer and the reports from the Russians afterwards, China still has a long way to go to get their Navy ready for a shooting war. While you stack Navy vs. Navy, you have to account for both sides Air Power. In that regard, I'd take India. Both China and India are still relatively new to using AEW tactics, with India holding a major edge today. The reason is simple, read the reports from "Cope India ?06" and compare them with the reports from the Russians after the various exercises in August. India is clearly superior given testimony and opinions of highly qualified non-biased sources. But tomorrow is a different story. China has training problems and military corruption problems that certainly need to be addressed, but there is no question the equipment favors China. If China Is fielding all new subs and ships with this bad boy, India has no answer: link For those not familiar, maybe this will help put it in perspective. link Not to mention, just because India is going to field the Gorshkov, China will be able to at least equal that with the Varyag. link link India clearly has the advantage today because India has a better Air Force, and I am not talking about equipment, I am talking about pilots. That's not only my opinion, many Russian, French, and US experts have said it many times. I would be unimpressed with the future Indian Navy though, while India has quality sub forces and continues to improve, I don't think they would last long against what China is building. China is building a modern deep water fleet that reminds me of US and Russian cold war era sea superiority ships, where India is building a modern Navy similar to what we saw from many European Nations during the cold war, ships that are multi-purpose making them suitable for any mission, but great at nothing.

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mithradates RE:Indian Ignorance of Weapons systems 11/30/2005 2:04:49 AM

" read the reports from "Cope India ?06" and compare them with the reports from the Russians after the various exercises in August." A few points about the exercises, and I have read both reports from Jane's. And it's "Cope India 05" btw. In anycase, one thing to note here is that the rules of the Sino-Russian wargames were INTENTIONALLY skewed against China, at China's REQUEST. The fundamental goals of the two excersizes are different. India is considering whether to form a military alliance relationship with the U.S through these military exercises, and the U.S is effectively seeking India's support as an ally(to contain China) through a bit of flattery. You can tell this by the manner of the exersize itself. In both Cope India 04 and 05, mock air combat involved Indian Su-30s guided by that nation's single Russian AWAC against American fighters without AWACS. In the 04 exersize the U.S side wasn't even allowed to use medium range aim-120 air-to-air missiles, while the Indian side were allowed to use the similar Russian AA-12s. Additionally, in all mock air-combat scenarios, the Indian fighter force outnumbered the American fighter planes usually by 3 to 1, and on occasion by 4 to 1. It's not a big deal if India's top pilots perform well under such conditions, unfortunately, such favorable conditions are unlikely to happen in a real war. In the exercise with Russia, China was trying to simulate EXACTLY what a naval and air war with American would be like. Now China has 8 domestically made AWACs, but a specific air-war scenario was that the AWACS were all taken out, and that China's fighters will have to take on an offensive force without any AWAC support. And such a scenario makes alot of sense, since in the event of a war with America, the U.S would most likely use their F-22s to take out China's AWACs before commiting the majority of their airforce. In that particular scenario, China lost 6 planes to Russia's 2. In another scenario, the assumption was that the enemy would strike a region of China which lacked the most advanced fighters. So AWAC equipped Russian SU-27s with AA-12s were pitted against Chinese upgraded J-7s(Mig-21), with the result of 7 Chinese planes taken out with a single Russian Su-27 lost. The same applied for the Naval exercises. China was pitting it's Songs and upgraded Mings against a Russian upgraded Akula nuclear submarine. And it turned out that China lost like 9(7 Mings, 2 Songs) submarines before the Akula was taken out by a Song. While the favorable conditions of Cope India is unlikely to happen to India if it was in a war with a major power. The conditions that China setup for itself is highly likely to happen to China, if in a war with America.

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mithradates DabrownGuy 11/30/2005 2:47:37 AM

Your points are for the Plan to fight a battle on the open seas with the Indian Navy. I can tell you right now, that's never going to happen. All strategic points from the straits of Malaca to the Taiwan Straits to the Andeman Islands, or even to Persian gulf, are within range of PLAAF ground based aircraft. We have a green water navy, and it's designed to fight and win within 500km of the coast. The good thing is that all strategic areas of importants are within 500km of the Chinese coast or the coast of one of our vassal states. Thus all the overwhelming advantages of Over the horizon targeting and fleet wide defense will be available to the PLAN but denied to the Indian Navy.

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Galrahn Indian Ignorance? More like Chinese Strategic and Tactical Challanges 11/30/2005 10:38:06 AM

mithradates I see your point of view, but we will disagree on what an India/China conflict would look like, and why India's training is more appropriate. First, the exercises themselves were right on the money. India has a major advantage over China in one regard, almost all of the resources India uses are imported from areas very close to India. In fact, with the exception of material imports from Australia, Japan, and the US (all of which are less than 40 billion dollars which isn't much), India imports everything from the west of India, away from China. A Chinese Navy's only offensive option against India is to blockade shipping, and it is extremely unlikely China could prevent shipping from Australia, Japan, or the US to India. The only other use of the Chinese Navy is a sea-based defense of the mainland. That would be absolutely useless to China though, because India wouldn't attack form the sea anyway. China would require sea lanes from the Persian Gulf to remain open, meaning China would have to protect tanker convoys from countries like Iran as the convoys sailed around India to China. Which means, China needs a blue water Navy to ever fight a war against India. China knows this, it is why they are building one. While the Chinese exercise might be more accurate for a potential strike at Taiwan, China has few options engaging India because quite honestly, China would run out of energy to support such a conflict. In any war against India, China will most definitely have to operate in the Indian Ocean, likely under favorable conditions for the Indian AF and Navy. India's Navy is more than capable of putting an energy blockade against China, which is exactly what the role of their Navy would be in any India vs China war. India would lock down the Strait of Malacca with ASW forces and China would be in a world of hurt to do any offensive strikes against the Indian Navy, while India destroys the Chinese economy without having to fire any major weapons from a Naval vessel by simply seizing/sinking Chinese tankers. There has not been a major conflict fought on earth since 1945, and many people forget what won that conflict. In the end it came down to 2 things, Germany unable to prevent shipping to Britain, and the US massively disrupting Japanese shipping in the Pacific. While the AIP and DE subs China has are nice for defense, the reality is against India those subs are useless unless they are able to operate in the Strait of Malacca. That option is dangerous though, considering it is likely they would piss off Japan, South Korea, or Australia if they sunk the wrong ship, and the last thing China would want to do is give India an ally in a shooting war, particularly an ally that could threaten their coast with a Navy. This makes Chinese nuke subs very important, however I am unaware of anytime in history where a nuke sub was able to provide air defense for convoys. When it is all said and done, the surface fleet for China that could fight a war against India does not match up to what India would be able to field effectively against China today, and the vast majority of Indian vessels would only have to occupy themselves with two roles, finding and sinking Chinese nuke subs and preventing tanker traffic to and from China and the Persian Gulf. China vs. India today leaves China with only 1 clear advantage, Chinese nuke submarines. Considering India has a carrier to utilize as a projected ASW platform, and considering India would be able to use every land based ASW aircraft in their arsenal to combat that threat, even the Chinese nuke boats have to overcome a lot just to utilize that advantage. If you can explain how the Chinese exercises somehow address China's main Naval concern, which is of coarse tanker shipping from the Persian Gulf, I'll be glad to continue this debate, but as of today, which was your standard, China simply has no answer to the problems they would face in a war against India?s Navy.

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dabrownguy RE:Indian Ignorance of Weapons systems 11/30/2005 7:41:33 PM

First off the InAF don't have AWACs so they couldn't use it in Cope India 04. Second the InAF did out number the USAF. So did the USAF. They switched sides often. The goal was to learn to intercept the bombers; MiG-27 and Jagaurs and protect them. Both airforces limited their capability in missile range to 50~ KM. I repeat both! The American pilots were impressed with Indian pilots and so were the Indian pilots. Fact is I don't think the Americans were expecting a new tactic creation in post cold war era with Russian jets. Its well known InAF pilot hours are ~200 each year. So stop spewing your crap. Also I don't see the PLAAF intercepting the InAF fleet hours away from the Chinese airbases if they don't know where they are and since a fleet does move. If you haven't noticed a fleet moves. The further away the InN fleet is from PLAAF aircover the less aircraft they can send. Also consider the proud tradition and training of InN and compare it with PLAN. I don't see foriegners too impressed with the PLA.

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Nanheyangrouchuan China's and India's exercises 11/30/2005 11:57:53 PM

China's exercies were to practice joint services exercises in attacking a piece of land, involving beach landings and support. In that respect is where the Russians remarked China failed miserably. It is true that the PLA had the air theatre stacked against it to simulate fighting the US, as J-6s and J-7s won't make it to the sky over Taiwan. But loosing the air war was a small part of the PLA's sloppy invasion. I'm not sure why the IAF set up COPE 05 like they did, in a war against China they'd be fighting Russian jets with Russian missiles, they should be working with the Russian air force. Maybe they wanted to test their abilities against pilots with better dogfighting skills, of course the USAF wanted to loose to build a case for getting more F-22s. A war between China and India is most likely to occur in and around Mayamar and Nepal. So all of this navy talk is almost pointless unless a small regional tiff blows up into full scale war, then China looses all central asian pipelines and inbound oil tankers. China's few submarines in the area would cause some inconvenience, but eventually get tagged by India's ASW (which may be getting gear from Japan...big trouble for the PLAN if that's the case).

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mithradates RE:Indian Ignorance? More like Chinese Strategic and Tactical Challanges 12/1/2005 2:18:43 AM

Clearly there are several areas where you are incorrect. "India's Navy is more than capable of putting an energy blockade against China, which is exactly what the role of their Navy would be in any India vs China war." As you've mentioned, that would require some major interdiction of tankers in the Persian gulf, and also a lockdown on the straits of Malacca. Assuming that the Indian navy could even do this(which it can't),that then leads to a few serious issues: 1. How do you identify one tanker amongst the hundreds to oil tankers that traverse these chockpoints every day? Over 30% of the world's tankers are built in China nowadays, but clearly Chinese shipping companies do not own 30% of the world's shipping business. Thus many oil Tankers(of Chinese design and manufacture) are operated by other countries. Likewise, how do you prevent a Malaysian or South Korean tanker company from supplying petrol to China from the Gulf. Now the Indian army can blindly sink every tanker that comes out of the Persian Gulf, but that'll get India into a world of hurt very quickly. Likewise, boarding or seizing the wrong(or the right ones crewed by sailors from another country) tankers can get India sanctioned almost immediately. Severely disrupting the energy supply of some 30 countries in East Asia will have huge global consequences, and not of the good kind. 2. How would India's navy deal with the eastern front? Keep in mind that while India's distance to the Persian gulf is much closer, it doesn't actually get the bulk of its petrol through shipping. Instead most of India's oil supply(~80%) is coming overland through 2 major routes: Pakistan, and the central asian republics. Pakistan is a Chinese ally(with 1 Chinese naval base and several military bases), and they could well stop the flow of energy to India. Most of the central asian republics(4 members of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization) are Chinese client states. These countries are beyond the power projection range of India's airforce(due to the lack of domestic in-flight refueling aircrafts),but well within range of the PLAAF and garrisoned by PLA troops. While the straits of Malacca serves as an energy conduit to dozens of Asian countries, the pipelines going through Pakistan and the central asian republics have ONLY ONE identifiable destination. Thus China would be able to DISCRIMINATELY cut off India's energy supply, while India can only INDISCRIMINATELY cut off China's supply. Disrupting the malacca straits will send energy prices through the roof, and bring many enemies to India. But cutting off the pipe lines from Pakistan and Central asia to India, hurts ONLY India without offending too many other countries. ) are Chinese client states

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