Comparison between the Navies of India and China

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Pseudonym RE:Indian Ignorance of Weapons systems 11/27/2005 12:56:10 PM

"But as for your above quote, Mithradates, I wonder what PLAN ship you're talking about **today** since the Type 052B and 052C have (if I recall correctly, so definitely correct me if I'm wrong) about 48 to maybe 64 VLS missiles that are SA-10 copies (the HHQ-9), and thus have a range of 90km. Specifically, this doesn't equal the capability to stop "~150 ASCMs" at "200-250km"." It's quite simple, they are the Middle Kingdom so all actual capabilities are doubled or more for public consumption. Gotta keep them happy somehow and nationalism works alot better than communism on that account.

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Pseudonym RE:Indian Ignorance of Weapons systems 11/27/2005 12:57:00 PM

"However, 2 ships should be capable of stopping around ~150 ASCMs from hitting a fleet." ROFL

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mithradates RE:Indian Ignorance of Weapons systems 11/27/2005 1:04:21 PM

Hey....I admit when I've made a factual mistake. Unlike most posters.

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Pseudonym RE:Indian Ignorance of Weapons systems 11/27/2005 1:12:46 PM

"Hey....I admit when I've made a factual mistake. Unlike most posters." So do I. Now 2 ships taking out 150 ascm's is ludicrous. The US Navy wouldn't get that many, let alone technology from earlier generations.

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mithradates the point of this entire discussion 11/27/2005 1:15:37 PM

is just a comparative analysis of Fleet strengths between the 2 countries. The people at the India board has an over-inflated estimation of their naval power. It's the belief that India is a "BLUE" water navy with their current assets that I'm trying to dispell. Think about it this way. We chinese are just beginning to understand the underlying techniques and technologies of running a modern navy. We KNOW that our navy is very WEAK for a nation of our size. We KNOW that our navy is BY FAR the weakest branch of our armed forces. We know and accept these FACTS. But here are also the facts, our WEAK "green-water" Navy seems to outclass that of the India's "blue-water" navy in almost every sector both numerically AND technologically. And keep in mind, the India navy is easily their military's STRONGEST branch.

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Yimmy RE:the point of this entire discussion 11/27/2005 1:24:11 PM

I don't think the navy is Indias strongest branch. As with China, I think her army and then her airforce come first. My opinion of Chinese capabilities probably is an understatement, due to my having read so much pro-Chinese dribble and becoming jaded as a result, I freely admit that. However, there really is far more to the equation than number of hulls. I believe that China could defeat the Republic of China, but I do not think they are capable of further afield, blue water operations. Same goes for India, both nations are regional powers, not international powers with true blue water abilities.

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dabrownguy RE:Indian Ignorance of Weapons systems 11/27/2005 3:52:36 PM

But almost everyship in the InN has VLS Baraks. Don't forget the Ak-630 and Khastan's as well as the Shtil on the Delhis and Talwars. The Isreali Star 3d radar can detect AShM at low low at 25 km off while hi low detection is even greater. 15 km is for the STGR radar used to guide the Barak VLS. Read the freakin page first. Does China even have 200 or even 100 km range AShM missile? No. You don't under stand naval technology at all! low low interception of AShM happens 30 km in! The S-300 isn't even capable of engaging low low cruise missiles with much success. Thats why the Russians had Khastan and Geckos. We have yet to anything about the 052C! Its easy to get PAR of 4 PAR on ship! Ask the Germans. PAR is just land PAR on ship. The Russians had PAR. Tell me how that turned out! And the 052C is no way an AEGIS so stop hyping. Ask Naval experts and they'll tell you the same. Also does the PLAN have the capability to stop Barhmos or a salvo attack switchblades on low low and what about the Sea Eagles launched by the Harriers? Two 052C can not stop 150 AShM! Not even 150 jets! They don't even have enough missiles so that proves your math. Also the InN detection is greater because of AEW on the Ka-31. So tell at what range can the HQ-9 engage a low attitude AShM? Its gotta be less. Take into horizon view. So you have the most mistakes i've ever seen. So tell me how the PLAN protect her fleet against AShM from the InN? HQ-9 can only engage AShM at low low at a 30KM range. The InN can do the same with Shtil on the Talway and Delhi with 6 second reload time on the rail launchers. The Delhis have two rail launchers meaning a launch of missiles every 3-4 seconds. Plus 3 Delhis, 3 Talwars and god knows how many Baraks. Plust take into consideration the VLS Shtil on the upcoming Gorkchav, the P-17 in the making and the P-15A with VLS Shtil.

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mithradates RE:Indian Ignorance of Weapons systems 11/27/2005 5:24:52 PM

"But almost everyship in the InN has VLS Baraks. Don't forget the Ak-630 and Khastan's as well as the Shtil on the Delhis and Talwars." Everything you've mentioned are just point defense systems. Everybody has them. But the fact of the matter is that your point defense missiles have a range of 10-15km, your ship radars have a range of 15-25 kms. Your navy has very few capital ships,and even fewer of them are even equipped with modern ASCMs(I'll adress this point shortly). Please at least find out the difference between area-defense systems, point-defense systems, and close-in defense systems, before asserting your(highly emotional) but non-sensical points. "Does China even have 200 or even 100 km range AShM missile?" C803 with a range of 250 km (supersonic) C802 with a range of 120km (subsonic) SS-N-22 with a range of 100 km (supersonic) "Its easy to get PAR of 4 PAR on ship! Ask the Germans. " It could be easy, though one wonders why the Indian navy can't accomplish such an easy task? The benefits of a PAR air defense missile ship is obvious, fleet-wide integrated air-defense. "Also does the PLAN have the capability to stop Barhmos" Firstly, a little bit on the Brahmos. It's a capable missile, I don't deny that, but there are a few problems: 1. It has not been deployed into the Indian navy yet. It had just passed the prototype phase and is now in the middle of military sea trials. After it passes that, then ships that can accomdate these missiles will have to be refitted with them. This entire process will take at least another 2 to 3 years at the earliest. 2. Over 70% of the components of the Brahmos missile is manufactured in Russia, NOT India. What happens if your supply of components are cut off? India's industries are not nearly mature enough to manufacture the entire missile by itself. "or a salvo attack switchblades on low low" China has a 3 tiered defense, the 052s will try to intercept from beyond the horizon (70 to 100 km) with the help of AWACs, if that fails, it'll coordinate the point-defense systems on individual ships to intercept( 5 to 15 km). If that fails, then close-in defenses(1 to 2 km) will come into play. Now every ship in the entire Chinese capital fleet (all Destroyers, Frigates, Corvettes) has minimally point and close-in defense systems. There are 4 destroyers and 2 Frigates in the PLAN with PAR style area defense systems. Clearly this system is not full proof, there's no such thing as 100% security against an ASCM barrage. Now for India, you guys really only have a 1-tier defense, that is your point missile defense systems. Now several(4) of your Kashin class destroyers do have close-in defense systems(Ak-630 ), but the bulk of your surface fleet do not.

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mithradates More on Indian ASCMs 11/27/2005 6:31:06 PM

Here is the BR sites description of the Brahmos missile: "The missile has a range of ~300 km at 14,000 metres or 120 km at 10 to 15 metres. The missile is believed to have a first stage solid-fuelled booster and a second stage liquid-fuelled ramjet." So as a sea skimmer, it's range is only 120km. And aside from 4 silos on the Destroyer Rajput for navy trial purposes, the Brahmos isn't actually DEPLOYED in the Indian navy. Instead the most advanced ship based ASCM currently deployed in the Indian surface fleet is the Russian SS-N-2D. Thus the ASCM that India's surface fleet is using only has a range of 80km.

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Yimmy RE:More on Indian ASCMs 11/27/2005 6:38:21 PM

Only 80km's? Does it matter? Neither navy has over the horizon guidance abilities do they?

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mithradates RE:More on Indian ASCMs 11/27/2005 6:39:45 PM

Right now, only China does.

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mithradates RE:the point of this entire discussion 11/27/2005 7:32:43 PM

"I don't think the navy is Indias strongest branch. As with China, I think her army and then her airforce come first." India is shielded by the Himalayas and hedged on the east and west with much weaker neighbors. As such it's almost as if the Indian subcontient is an island onto itself. Thus, if one were to look at their defense expenditures over the last 25 years, one would see that the Navy has consistently taken up the lions share of funding. Well over that of the army and airforce.

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mithradates coolboyjay 11/27/2005 7:55:11 PM

The sources that I've listed are all valid. Personal attacks won't create ships out of nothing, nor will it make the navy of your country anything more than the brown water navy that it is.

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blod_sweat_n_code To Mr.Mithradates 11/28/2005 5:10:57 AM

Very well,u needed a thread to boast about your navy having this and ur navy having that...but shall i tell u something U GUYS DNT HAVE ......!!A VOTE!!....... So lie back relax and think about it.

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PacEMakeR RE:mithradates 11/28/2005 5:22:45 AM

The Indian Navy only receives 15% of the annual defence budget. The Army and Air Force get the lions share of the budget. This trend has been present since independance.

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