Comparison between the Navies of India and China

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displacedjim RE:Chinese Strategic and Tactical Challanges....part II 6/23/2005 10:10:37 AM

"displacedjim, I think that both sides were simulatingf fictional weapons. I doubt they used semiactive AAM. Also the MKI were not involved in 04 and Mirages didn't simulate MICA. So the article should be read with a pinch of salt IMHO." -- DBG ---- It is true they simulated fictional, or notional, weapons. However, the characteristics of those weapons were as stated: the USAF F-15s were limited to a semi-active AAM only, and at least the Su-30K were simulating an active AAM. The article clearly pointed out that the Su-30MKI was **not** used in the exercise. The article claimed MICA "use" on the M2000; I don't know about whether that part is accurate or not, but given the rest of the article is actually right on target and correct in every detail that I'm aware of through independent confirmation, I'd tend to give this point the benefit of the doubt. It could be that the M2000 simulated the same notional active AAM as opposed to explicitly simulating MICA. Displacedjim

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Yimmy RE:Comparison between the Navies of India and China 11/26/2005 5:35:49 PM

I think you are somewhat exagerating what the Chinese have. Are you sure their new air defence destroyers are operational? Likewise, are you sure their new nuclear submarines are in sea trials? Are their old nuclear submarines still in service (I know for certain their SSBN is not, counter to your claim). And finally, are you really sure you can call so many Chinese ships up to Western late 80's standard (your definition of modern)?

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mithradates RE:Comparison between the Navies of India and China 11/26/2005 5:40:24 PM

Check those links man.

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Yimmy RE:Comparison between the Navies of India and China 11/26/2005 5:43:44 PM

Hmmm, I was rather hoping for a different source to Sino-defence. I like the site, but if the forum is anything to go by, I doubt its credability.

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mithradates RE:Comparison between the Navies of India and China 11/26/2005 10:06:13 PM

If anything...that site is one of the most accurate Non-governmental sites around. They seem to always be the last to confirm any new PLA acquisitions, well after all the rumer-mongering on other sites. So I think there's a great deal of credibility there.

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coolboyjay RE:Comparison between the Navies of India and China 11/27/2005 12:50:26 AM

yawn..... last time i heard mitradates was talking about converting coal to oil at the rate of 5 mln barrels per day. hehe.. 10 yr old's in India think more logically than that.

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mithradates RE:Comparison between the Navies of India and China 11/27/2005 1:37:07 AM

"hehe.. 10 yr old's in India think more logically than that." Well personal attacks aside, the problem is that India(despite having all those smart kids), cannot even manage to build and deploy a decent tank, let alone a fighter jet, or nuclear sub. The fact of the matter is, almost your ENTIRE navy is bought from other countries. And of course, your ENTIRE airforce and army is bought from western countries. Your nation seems incapable of manufacturing ANYTHING of their own, even when it's a matter of national security. My question to you is: For all of it's human resources, why is India incapable of making advanced weapons of it's own?

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dabrownguy Wrong. So wrong. 11/27/2005 1:40:28 AM

True that India has 5 Rajputs but not obselete. These things have 32 VLS Baraks SAMs. Check your BR site. Also have the Isreali STAR radar. PLAN has nothing on this radar! They also have Barhmos now! You should read articles on them. Also the Godavari Class also have VLS Barak! and the Barhmuthra Class are far from obselete! They have VLS Barak and 16 AShM Switch Blades that and the two helecopter bays. So that would be 1 Carrier 8 Dystoryers 6 Guided missile frigates Also PLAN has very poor capability to intercept the Indian Navies anti-ship missiles. Also we don't even know anything about the 052C so hold the wargames.

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mithradates Indian Ignorance of Weapons systems 11/27/2005 1:58:36 AM

The Barak is a POINT defense system with an interception range of only 10km. So it cannot even handle something like 10 ASCMs launched at it and nearby ships at the same time from different angles. link Once again the Israeli star radar is just a MONOPULSE radar with a ASCM detection range of only 15km. link The kind of missile defense ships that I'm talking about are those with long-range SAMs(interception range of 200-250km) guided by Phased Array Radars(Detection range of 250-300km) that is integrated into the Fleet C4I. That is, one or two ships can provide air defense coverage over an entire fleet. Imagine a ship that can stop ~150 ASCMs from hitting any ship in a fleet within a 200km radius while at the same time, automatically direct the point defense systems of the entire fleet against those missiles that it's not able to intercept in time. Now India doesn't have anything like that. "Also PLAN has very poor capability to intercept the Indian Navies anti-ship missiles." Well, the PLAN has those same point systems, plus medium range air defense missiles, plus PAR missile defense ships. So whatever protection it has against Indian ASCMs is much greater than vice versa. Now as for the 052Bs and 052Cs, the fact of the matter is that it's been inducted into service. This means that, MINIMALLY, it has passed it's sea trials and has tested its air-defense systems.

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mithradates The truth about India's navy 11/27/2005 2:31:48 AM

India doesn't have a "BLUE" water navy by world standards. It merely has a BROWN water navy. The point here is that the other nations of the Indian ocean has basically costal patrol crafts. So in comparison, India's navy can go uncontested anywhere in the Indian ocean. China on the other hand has only a GREEN water navy. But it's in the East Asian region, which is filled with more advanced industrialized societies. That means that effectively, even the smaller states like that of Thailand or Taiwan or even S.K will have minimally a brown water navy. And powerful maritime nations like Japan has a true blue water navies. The problem with China is that it's traditionally been a land power. And even it's airforce gets more funding than it's navy. Still, when comparing the navies of India with that of China, we have to keep in mind the fundementals. India is a BROWN water navy that's trying to transition into a GREEN water navy. China is a GREEN water navy that's trying to transition into a BLUE water navy.

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coolboyjay RE:Comparison between the Navies of India and China 11/27/2005 4:20:25 AM

Mithradates, going by ur past record, I would have to ask for neutral sources for each of the statements to have made. If anybody needs a refresher: Here are a list of arguments by mithradates: 1. China has the capacity to convert about 2 mln barrels of oil per day from coal. (china's consumption is 5 mln bpd, around 40% imports) 2. China would be able to send in a mechanised division into India's North East, after crossing the himalayas the swamps, 3 major rivers, the rainforests and lastly the Indian Army posts in two weeks. by the way, did u mean soldiers with automatic rifles, when u said MECHANISED?? 3. China had a 45 day strategic reserve of oil. of course, he must have overlooked this small news item: news.xinhuanet.com/english/ 2005-07/05/content_3176510.htm Kindly provide us with proof, (neutral ones please). Once u provide that, then we shall talk.

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displacedjim RE:Indian Ignorance of Weapons systems 11/27/2005 12:19:46 PM

"The kind of missile defense ships that I'm talking about are those with long-range SAMs(interception range of 200-250km) guided by Phased Array Radars(Detection range of 250-300km) that is integrated into the Fleet C4I. That is, one or two ships can provide air defense coverage over an entire fleet. Imagine a ship that can stop ~150 ASCMs from hitting any ship in a fleet within a 200km radius while at the same time, automatically direct the point defense systems of the entire fleet against those missiles that it's not able to intercept in time. Now India doesn't have anything like that." ---- In general, without having particularly studied either navy, I'd agree that it looks like the PLAN is more capable overall than the Indian Navy. There's also the matter of trying to actually get their respective navies into the fight, and I bet China's much larger number of various types of auxiliaries and commercial shipping that could be pressed into military service would be very important in any prolonged sea campaign. I'd also guess a similar comparison of amphibious capability would again give the nod to the PLAN. But as for your above quote, Mithradates, I wonder what PLAN ship you're talking about **today** since the Type 052B and 052C have (if I recall correctly, so definitely correct me if I'm wrong) about 48 to maybe 64 VLS missiles that are SA-10 copies (the HHQ-9), and thus have a range of 90km. Specifically, this doesn't equal the capability to stop "~150 ASCMs" at "200-250km". Displacedjim

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Heorot RE:mithradates Ignorance of Radar 11/27/2005 12:30:47 PM

"The kind of missile defense ships that I'm talking about are those with long-range SAMs(interception range of 200-250km) guided by Phased Array Radars(Detection range of 250-300km)" Mithradates, radars see in a straight line. Even from the highest mast, you will NOT see targets at that range unless they are conveniently flying high. That was the whole point of sea skimmers. Its impossible to see and track a missile until it's over the horizon.

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mithradates RE:Indian Ignorance of Weapons systems 11/27/2005 12:45:41 PM

"Specifically, this doesn't equal the capability to stop "~150 ASCMs" at "200-250km". First of all, the stated range of the HQ-9 SAM was a mistake on my part. However, 2 ships should be capable of stopping around ~150 ASCMs from hitting a fleet. Furthermore, just with some additional research, I realized that even American Aegis style destroyers only has an ASCM interception range of around 100km.

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mithradates RE:mithradates Ignorance of Radar 11/27/2005 12:54:17 PM

"Mithradates, radars see in a straight line. Even from the highest mast, you will NOT see targets at that range unless they are conveniently flying high. That was the whole point of sea skimmers. Its impossible to see and track a missile until it's over the horizon." Ah, but not all targets are ASCMs. Targets could be enemy aircrafts, or even short range ballistic missiles. My comment above is to show the MAXIMUM detection range of the PAR. Now as for ASCM interception, keep in mind that the PAR installed on the 052s is designed to work with input from AWACs and other airborne detection assets. So that currently, beyond the horizen interception of ASCMs out to 90 km is possible by the Chinese navy.

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