Women in the special forces?

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zBlitz 8/15/2010 2:07:01 AM

Reading through these arguments, I've realized that several of you seem to have it in your mind that if you open up the option of Special Forces to women that we need to lower the standards to get women in. That's not true. Simply having the option and the freedom to at least try for it would be good enough. Of course you have your jerks and morons in every crowd, a few women here and there will complain that the training is too hard for them to get through. If women are allowed to go through, complaints like that should be completely ignored. If women are allowed to go through the training, they need to be reliable and as strong as any other male, they need to have gone through the same exact training, or they should not be accepted and kicked.

Ever since I was twelve years old I wanted to be a Navy SEAL. I was very misinformed, and so for a few years I worked like crazy to have the ability to reach SEAL standards, and then I was crushed by the fact that women are not allowed in special forces. We can't even try.

The point is, we do not have to have women in special forces, fighting. We just want the option.

I also read somewhere that women are less reliable on their menstrual cycles, that is not true either. When a women works out vigorously, like in SEAL training, and especially as they are young, our cycles are not as bad. I've never had cramps before, and when I am on, I tend to do better in my races for track and cross country(like a good five seconds better). Who is to say that it won't work out like that for women in special forces? I know I am not the only girl the way I am. There are women that can get through the training on this planet. Are there few? Absolutely. Women aren't supposed to be able to compete with guys, but there are women who can, nature is strange like that.

I read in an article a few days ago that our Military special forces is suffering from a lack of people getting through the training. The only way you can mend this is to either lower the standards or open the training to women as well. In doing this you have opened the training to all possible and eligible candidates, you will have more people for the training, and maybe with women present this will spur men to avoid humiliation of weakness in front of women. And maybe some women actually get through, chances are unlikely, but there is a chance. I believe we will have a higher success rate, of course I could be completely and utterly wrong, it's a theory though, and in order to prove or disprove is to look to history or actually try it out.

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gf0012-aust 8/15/2010 6:14:23 PM

There are women that can get through the training on this planet. Are there few? Absolutely. Women aren't supposed to be able to compete with guys, but there are women who can, nature is strange like that.

there are women who completed a cut down version of special forces training during "the troubles" in the 70-80's. Admittedly they did not do the full course, but they did a cut down course and beat a number of men from the RM's and Paras doing the same course to qualify as "specials" (as opposed to SF).

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kharris07 9/7/2010 9:43:25 PM

I agree that women who are able to meet the same standards as males, should be allowed to participate in the selection process and be considered under the same standards to be selected. Over the past few years ive heard several arguments as to why men dont think females should be allowed to be in special forces units, all of which i believe are very poor arguments from men who are intimidated by the fact that females are just as good, if not better then they are. I completely understand if men feel immasculated fighting close combat beside a female, but i dont believe that is a good reason as to why females should not be allowed to train for this position. As a female Military Police officer who has recently returned from deployment to Afghanistan, i can attest that most of these arguments frequently given are, to put it bluntly, bullshit. There were several missions that required my platoon (including our 7 females) to stay in the field, outside of the wire, for weeks at a time, w/o showers or restrooms. Im glad to report that during none of these missions did we run into any issues of our females being incapacitated by their menstual cycles (nor did they attract any animals), and i know that it may be hard for some of you to believe but it actually was the males who were particulary "unhygienic", there called tampons and baby wipes people. And i might add, for the females who would rather not have to worry about periods all together theres a birth control available called depo provera that with most females, cancels out theyre periods all together, the contraceptive comes in the form of a shot given every 3 months (special forces usually deploy in 6-9 month rotations). While deployed we participated in many dismounted missions, many of our females, including myself being saw gunners . As far as training foreign militaries, part of our overall mission involved training ANPs (afghan national police) and at times we assisted in training ANA (afghan national army). Personally, we didnt encounter any issues while training or working directly with either parties. and ill note that we also worked with the french, uae, and polish, all of whom embraced training and working with diverse militaries. The most popular remark about "female SF" is the fact that MOST females would not be able to meet the standards set for Special Forces, I dont believe the standard should be lowered for females. I agree that females should have to meet the same standards. I believe there are many females who could exceed that standard. As for pain tolerance and psychological strength i feel sex has nothing to do with either of these, its on the individual i know alot of hard females and i know alot of weak males, im sure all of you could agree. Overall i dont see why someones sex should have anything to do with the selection process, i believe everyone should be given an Equal Opportunity to prove they have what it takes. hmm... E.O that sounds familiar!

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USairforcemaniac reply zBlitz 2/9/2011 9:49:51 PM

i totally get where you are coming from, i agree with that theory on that boys will stick it through to "impress" the women, i say at least give us a chance to go through the training, i would be so grateful for that and have the chance to "be in the spec ops" and tell us if we would have become one so we at least get that. i think that if we did "missions" where females got "hurt" and a male got "hurt" worse and see the reaction of the people in the test like if they would help the female who could still move around and get to shelter and the male being the one "seriously like life/death injured" but the catch is that only the people getting "hurt" and the observers are the only ones who know what is going on so the people being tested wouldn't have the option to mess up the test, this is to see what really happens on the fact that they would care for the female instead of the male no matter what the circumstance.

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ker Third Way 2/10/2011 6:18:49 PM

Lets set aside most of this debate. I prepose starting a small all femail combat suport formation. Cultural and language skill requirements would equal or surpase those of Army Special forces. Some phisical requirements, mostly sprint speed, long march distance and combat load would be experemented with over time as it was determined what rolls the new formations were most useful in. Call them MPs and use them in cultural, intel and recon work to begine with. Let them have some time on a learning curve to find a fit between what they can do and what needs to be done.

I would hate to have some of the most able and motivated women members of the militairy inflicted with career ending pelvious injurys because we tried to turn them into boys. That is tested them to distrution. Ran them out.

In a way the debate is less about mail and femail ability and more about American cultural paterns. Many armys when they needed to used femails successfuly in combat. We are not really talking about giving comanders to fredom to employ women as the comander see fit. That argument is over. We are talking about what right women have to demand that they be used more like men and paid and promoted and cellebrated accordingly.

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cmeblu Research paper for college 7/23/2011 6:11:08 AM

Hi, I'm doing a research paper on why women are not allowed to join special forces in the United States. I read your post and see that you are in the military, I wasn't able to note if you were special forces or not. I was able to tell that the topics you discussed were based on experience, that's how they came across to me anyway. I am simply doing a research paper, I am neutral on the subject, even though I am a woman. I simply want facts and maybe any sources you could give me, if you have any that discuss this topic. If you are or were special forces than talking directly to you would be a primary source. I know you don't make the rules, but the opinion of a man involved in SF and his thoughts on a woman being part of the team would qualify as a direct source. I would have to ask my professor, it may be a secondary source, but not matter, all the quotes I can get from someone directly involved would help me greatly. Please don't worry about being PC, I'm looking for truth and honesty. This is research and I must remove any and all opinion in order to do a proper research of this or any topic. However, the opinion of someone who is directly involved in SF does matter very much. I would love it if you would email me back and allow me to ask you some questions.

With Much Respect for serving our Country, SF or not,

Katherine Fox

@import url link

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ker 7/24/2011 1:56:03 AM

I need to say that I have not been in the Military. I did use the word we as in we Americans. I'm sorry that I was unclear. As for fairness, It apears to be demenstratably true that having femails soldiers trained to handle captured femail or just to interact with femail civilians. If good will and/or good intel results don't stop. If your saying that women and should't wear the same unit patches as the men who earn better pt numbers that's fine. I always intended for the women to get their own patch. If your saying a productive program should be ended because some guy thinks a woman stole his job your being very unfair to the people who could be suported by the program.

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phrank 7/24/2011 4:03:01 AM

What I am saying is that we need 1 physical standard. Whom ever passes it fine, but to say a man is to weak to do the job but a woman who has to meet lower physical standards is fine, to me is wrong. How can it be that we expect a man to be able to meet one standard and a woman another and have them doing the same job. Either that job requires so much strength or not. I know some will say that's not fair to woman as they tend to be a bit weaker. What I say is we offer everyone the same standard how is that not fair.

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cmeblu 7/25/2011 3:49:58 AM

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I already said: I'm not a macho. I do respect women who are to me the equal of us. I never had opinions biased on females. I just say what science proves about it:

"Menstruating women start to produce progesterone in their ovaries after the lutenizing hormone ( LH ) surge around the time of ovulation (usally 14 days after the first day of the cycle). The progesterone level rises and falls just before the bleeding begins. This premenstrual time is called the progesterone withdrawl phase. For some women this period is felt as an exteremely anxious, nervous, "tempermental mood." Some women find it to be an extremely depressing time with tears and feelings of low self-esteem." - Dr Abraham Harvey Kryger

"Dr. Abraham Kryger is well respected in the medical community for his extensive training and more than twenty-five years of experience in conventional, holistic and complementary medicine. He is a frequent source of expert commentary in the USA Today.com column "Spotlight on Health", the world's most widely-read daily medical, health and wellness column."

Then:
link

I think these guys are knowing a "few" about it if you don't trust me ;)

I got personnal examples as well: my current girlfriend (I'm not really thinking about marriage right now although she does for both of us) lacks much more patience than I do. She's half-Tunisian from her mother and half-French from her father, she has been now in Tunisia for not even a week (5 days) and she spent already at LEAST 5 hours on phone calling me at odd hours. She sends me almost 15 sms on my cell phone daily.
I do love her she does love me but isn't a tad "too much"?
If you take examples I can always show you counter examples.

Bring me a woman soldier and let's check how much she can walks with a 40Kg (for a lot of women it's large more over than half of her bdoy weight) bagpack and a 4Kg in the hands under the heavy sun of Africa...

I think don't understand my point: I don't care about the sex of the soldiers. I look on technical aspects. I don't know if you've heard about testosteron?

Here's what it is and why males are "stronger" than men:

link

Please do read it, it's not that long but explains why a female can't do what a man does.

Insecure? Be sure that if I had women in my units on the battlefield I'd be the first one to fall on them and teach them on my free time ;)
I don't say women are weaker in a whole, but in SF they're not useful as a man is. But here's something about me: I can't resist a charming woman and this got me into troubles several times!

Plain and simple, you just laid out exactly why women aren't allowed in SF with men. I'm a lady by the way, however, opposite sexes are attracted to one another. Forget about hormones, forget about strength, the point is, especially for men, once that adrenaline sets in, after an extremely suspenseful mission, that sexy team mate of yours is gonna start looking damn hot, even if she's covered in mud and grime and you never found her sexy before. Men have testosterone and they get a rush of it in an adrenaline induced situation and sex is usually a very good release and way to calm down. Men are also going to want to protect the woman that is on their team and it can be very distracting. WE ARE HUMAN. The military isn't trying to punish us, but even if women did make it onto a SEAL team, you can bet there is only going to be one because most women aren't going to make the training and if they do the likely hood of two women on the same team.............up there with impossible. I don't even want to hear you women out there making excuses for self control. Ask yourself when the last time you've been face to face with a hot looking SEAL or SF and his perfect body, before you start posting comments on your "out of this world" self control. I'm the first woman to tell you that I would love to be a part of the action and training that SF and SEALS go through, and even more to make it on their team. But I'm gonna be honest with myself and say that, Yes, no matter how strong or fit I am, a man of the same size will still be stronger. I'm also going to be honest and say that it's very likely that I would get extremely close with one of my team mates because I've always had more g

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KatusaKate74 Perhaps I can help you 7/25/2011 12:28:28 PM

Perhaps I can help you by answering some of your questions.

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