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Subject: Why Britain must make a Powerful case for Economic Reform in Europe!
Nemesis1    6/13/2005 2:38:41 PM
Numbers count - Why Britain must make a powerful case for economic reform in Europe

There is something almost too prosaic about statistics. Great debates will be held in Europe this week over subjects as immediate and profound as opportunity, poverty, and welfare, and yet much of the rhetoric will be without statistical foundation, and the only numeric competition will be in the stream of adverbs and adjectives deployed to make eloquent but unsustainable arguments.
Britain will doubtless suffer more ignominy over its rebate, but far more important issues will remain undiscussed. Absurd claims by several countries, in particular by France and Germany, will, meanwhile, go unchallenged to the detriment of their own citizens and of the region.

It is clear that Europe is beginning to divide along two lines, the new and the old, and the successful and the failing, and yet the old and failing are determined that the new and successful should abide by standards that have hobbled their own countries; it is vested, institutional interest taken to the extreme. There is, however, nothing high-minded about the lowest common denominator, as figures provided by Eurostat, the European Union's statistical agency, make clear. For all the fine talk about ?fairness?, which of the following three countries is fairer in providing opportunities to its more mature citizens and to women: France, Germany or Britain? In 2004, the employment rate of ?older workers?, those aged between 55 and 64, in France was 37.3 per cent, in Germany 39.2 per cent, and in Britain 56.2 per cent. And what of women? The female employment rate last year in France was 57.4 per cent, in Germany 59.9 per cent, and in Britain 65.6 per cent. What European directive has Britain adopted to ensure that its citizens have more opportunities in life? Flexibility in hiring (and in firing) is essential if companies and countries are to provide choices for their citizens.

And what of the working poor, those who have clearly taken up the challenge to better themselves and their families? Are they better treated in countries that are conscious of ?welfare? or in Anglo-Saxon, for which read ?brutal?, Britain? The tax rate on ?low wage earners?, as defined by Eurostat, was 45.4 per cent last year in Germany, 32.6 in France and 26.4 per cent in Britain. Surely there must a category in which these two pillars of European society outperform Britain? Indeed there is ? unemployment, which is 4.7 per cent in Britain, 10.2 per cent in France, and 11.8 per cent in Germany. At least the jobless on the Continent have the consolation of their leaders? philosophising.

These figures have been duly noted by the new entrants to the EU, whose citizens were endlessly and unfairly caricatured in the French referendum campaign. ?Are we so frightening?? a Hungarian cabinet minister asked in Germany last week. And where are the ?Polish plumbers? so mocked by the French establishment? Britain's creaking, moaning pipes are calling out urgently for them.

The British Government has created a fairer society than that overseen by many of its European allies, and Tony Blair must forcefully make that argument this week as the region?s leaders contemplate a continent without a constitution that would have institutionalised the poverty of the vulnerable and provided bragging rights for a sanctimonious elite. That the sanctimony and smugness is callous and unjustified is statistically provable.

- An excellent article from todays copy of The Times
link

Nemesis

 
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Lawman    RE:Why Britain must.. -Lawmen   6/15/2005 10:14:30 AM
I strongly disagree, the UK would not need to pass EU directives in order to trade with Europe. That is nonsense. The UK would not become like a giant Switzerland, though that would not be so bad, just look at the Swiss economy! The UK would be very happy in NAFTA, especially given the UK's very healthy relationship with the US. The UK would not be bullied within NAFTA, no more than it is pushed around by Europe, anyway. I am not suggesting cutting all ties with Europe, I do take issue with the suggestion that not being part of the EU would mean the UK losing all its trade with Europe. The EEA would allow the UK access to European markets, but without anywhere near as much red tape as with EU membership.
 
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oldbutnotwise    RE:Why Britain must.. -Lawmen   6/15/2005 10:29:36 AM
I did not claim that they received more, but that they payed less than any other “rich country“. This shortfall had to be made up by by other “rich“ countries, e.g. Benelux, Germany and Denmark, paying more. So Germany etc. are subsidizing the UK right now. My deteriorating English language skills are likely to blame for this misunderstanding. ;-) what shortfall? what you mean is that if the UK paid the full amount we would subsidise the rest germany gets no rebate yet only pays 7.7 billion euros more than it recieves yet without the rebate the UK would pay 5.8 billion (last year figures) yet we keep getting told that germany is a richer country than the UK. yet compaire this with France at 1.9 billion again without any rebate and you must ask why is France who is certainly as rich as the UK in not more so(especially according to the french posters here) paying near 1 billion less than the UK???? and still demanding that the UK pays even more now that is the hypocritical country not the UK, if you project the figures 5 years and remove the rebate you get germany + 9.2 billion france + 2.1 billion UK + 23 billion now would you like to justify those figures!!!
 
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Lawman    RE:Why Britain must.. -Lawmen   6/15/2005 10:39:19 AM
The UK could even use some of the money saved by withdrawing from the EU to fund the armed forces, and maybe even a space program! The UK would be a lot better off, and could use some of the money to promote small businesses, which are the key to a healthy economy. Bring on UK withdrawal from the EU!
 
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dummnutzer    RE:Why Britain must.. -Lawmen   6/15/2005 11:11:59 AM
Q:"now would you like to justify those figures!!!" Using Your own figures (without rebate): 80 million Germans pay 7.7 Billion ? - 96.25 ? per capita 60 million British pay 5.5 Billion ? - 91.67 ? per capita The Brits do not deserve a rebate, even without one they would be paying less than the Germans! I see the EU as a club. You (the UK) begged to join. I (Germany) told everybody what a great guy You are and convinced the other members to let You join. As soon as You are a member, You want to re-define its Charter (change Ever Closer Union to Free Trade) and refuse to pay Your membership fees. To stop Your whining and yelling, disrupting any club meeting, I and some other members agree to pay part of Your membership fees. Yes, I call this subsidizing the UK.
 
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Old Grunt    Why Britain must make a Powerful case for Economic Reform in Europe! - Nemesis1   6/15/2005 11:20:15 AM
Why exactly did you post this on the Armed Forces of the World board?
 
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oldbutnotwise    RE:Why Britain must.. -Lawmen   6/15/2005 11:27:09 AM
so germany pay a bit more ok but why do you let france pay so little? on these figures france has a similar population 60 million not so sure how you get your figures but fill in the missing numbers 60 million France pay 1.9 Billion ? -????? per capita now is that fair? why should the UK (and germany for that matter) pay for frence farmers? we have said if the CAP is replaced by a fair system we will look at giving up the rebate. by the way the per head capita in germany is some 20% higher than the UK yet the diference between your figure is a lot less, so it can be argued that the UK pays more of its personal income into the EU than germany
 
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Lawman    RE:Why Britain must.. -Lawmen   6/15/2005 11:29:31 AM
The UK changes have helped Europe, but either way, we still pay far more than we receive - why should we pay for the privilege of being talked down to by France and Germany? Remember, a majority of people in the UK would be more than happy to see the UK withdraw. The UK can happily take it's money elsewhere!
 
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oldbutnotwise    RE:Why Britain must.. -Lawmen   6/15/2005 11:35:49 AM
PS some club that the first thing it does when you join is pick your pockets. the day before the UK joined yet after it had been agreed that we would, what does the EU do - it makes fishing rights open to all members so destroying in one fell swoop the local british fishing industry. you consider this club to be a german/french club that allows in other countries not an equal partnership, well if i join a club I dont expect my fees to be higher than the other members, nor do i see why i have to pay for spain who only seem to living on eu handouts, so in short its not a club but a trading block, as such we can expect that fair treatment is applied to all members, you claim that you subsidise the UK yet with the new member s it is likely that they will foot the bill for both the UK and the french this is why the CAP need to be sorted. The french just used this as a smoke screen because there people relised that the EU is a con by a few in brussles to feather there nest. If any club i was a member of had failed its audit for the last 5 years I would soon resign. the EU is corupt and top heavy with civil servents who see there job as continuing the status quo instead of creating a workable comunity
 
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dummnutzer    RE:Why Britain must.. -Lawmen   6/15/2005 3:04:14 PM
Germany having a higher per capita income than the UK is inconceivable, as this “Sick Man of Europe“ cannot be richer than the British role model of economics. According to AngloAmerican media, I live in a decaying hole. Murdoch, whose article started this discussion, cannot be a liar. Britain refuses reform, pointing at France and the CAP. France points at the UK and its rebate. We need to kick the French and the British to get reforms going. Germany and some other net-contributors are getting tired of their parasitic behaviour. I fully agree upon the need to reform the EU, including but not limited to improved democracy (not popular in the UK, as it empowers the EU parliament), getting rid of the rebate (UK again), phasing out CAP (not popular in France, Southern Europe, Eastern Europe) and improved accounting (unpopular with the Eurocrats). But the stories about EU corruption are blown out of proportion in the UK media (British print media are a disgrace IMHO). The EU administration is about as large as the administration of a large town. The UK leaving the EU is ok. Dumb, but ok with me. Just remember that it was not the EU begging the UK to join, but the other way around. I repeat: Germany and the rest of Old Europe did not force the UK to join. The lies to the British public about the EU being only a trade block were told by British, not European politicians. But please make up Your mind. This anti-EU-rhetoric with its strong Anti-German/French component is quite often insulting to us on the continent. It is getting boring btw. . NAFTA will be a paradise, the US will not be bullying the little UK out of respect for the “Special Relationship“: Just remember the special treatmet of the UK in the Steel and Banana Wars. Oops, there was no special treatment. But surely, there must be a reason for the US to treat Britain better than Canada. The EU will give full market access without any demands, a privilege sought by many nation. There will be no bad blood between the Uk and its former partners and no demand to obey EU directives. Hahaha.
 
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Lawman    RE:Why Britain must.. -Lawmen   6/15/2005 3:17:12 PM
Hmm, actually, the UK was allowed special treatment in the steel wars, as were a number of other countries, it just did not like to advertise the fact. The UK is not a parasite, it has never actually received more than it has put in. Perhaps Germany should have demanded its own rebate, but to blame the UK for being smart smacks of Euro-fever. The UK would be better off outside of the EU, but still in the EEA, which is effectively the best of both worlds. In terms of UK membership in the EU, it must be remembered that the EU profits from the UK, so should be a bit more polite. The UK wanted membership in an economic group, not a new superstate, since the UK has no interest in being a province in a new "United States of Europe".
 
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joe6pack    RE:Why Britain must..   6/15/2005 3:19:45 PM
As a complete outsider and not very well versed in the EU.. I find it interesting that these debates seem to center around Germany, France and Britain. It would seem to me that some countries feel "more equal" than others. If I was a citizen of one of the other, is it 24, EU nations I'd be rather put out. I beleive "parasite" has come up more than once in the thread... From a US perspective, one of the things the founders of our nation were worried about was the "tyrany of the majority" and how larger more wealthy states would interact with smaller states. Something the EU may do well to reconsider.
 
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dummnutzer    RE:Why Britain must.. -Lawmen   6/15/2005 4:02:01 PM
Being smart <> Threatening to veto any decision unless one gets it way. Several people buy theater tickets, but one refuses to pay the full price and threatens to yell throughout the concert unless he gets a rebate. I call such a person a parasite, sorry. The EU was already more than a Trade Block when the UK joined. It is quite possible that UK politicians lied to the UK public about it, but the UK did not join a mere Trade block. About the steel wars: I am interested. Are we talking about the same exceptions/delays/etc. several nation (including Germany) got, or a “real“ special treatment? I always got the impression that the “Special Relationship“ ended whenever the US sees its economic interests diverging. This impression has been enforced by some members of the local British colony bitching about the economic aftermath of Iraq 2.0 for UK companies ...
 
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dummnutzer    RE:Why Britain must.. joe6pack   6/15/2005 4:07:15 PM
Q:"From a US perspective, one of the things the founders of our nation were worried about was the "tyrany of the majority" and how larger more wealthy states would interact with smaller states. Something the EU may do well to reconsider." A system of double majority (countries & population) is inclided in the so called constitution. So the Big Three will not be able to abuse the smaller countries. On the other hand: He who pays the fiddler selects the music.
 
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Lawman    RE:Why Britain must.. -Lawmen   6/15/2005 4:18:52 PM
The reason for economic difficulties for UK companies is nothing to do with OIF. The problem is that the government has been deliberately killing off the manufacturing industry, in favour of relying on the service industries and, to be honest, the house price inflation. Now that the service industries are downsizing operations in the UK, and house prices are about to go down, so the economy in the UK is about to go down. The UK needs to withdraw from the EU, and use the money it saves to encourage small businesses, and manufacturers to start. The key to future UK growth is to rebalance the 'spread' - i.e. balance primary, secondary and tertiary industry. The UK needs to stop buying whatever is 'Euro-friendly', and just buy whatever is best.
 
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neofire1000    RE:Why Britain must.. -Lawmen   6/15/2005 4:53:36 PM
Britain needs to pull out of europe, period. Its time tony blair concentrated on his own turf and made attempts to secure the future UK economy. I'm not against europe and I live in Scotland but i agree strongly with dummnutzer's last post, and I hate politics.....:) Oh and the house prices are killing all first time buyers, my little (and i mean really small) ex navy 3 bed semi cost me £135000, totally over priced housing, dunno what that is in dollars but its too much, and thats in a rural village about 15 miles from glasgow. Tony wants to keep his rebate and the euro's want it gone, its only a matter of time, it all has to end and pulling uot of europe is the viable option.
 
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