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Subject: Why Britain must make a Powerful case for Economic Reform in Europe!
Nemesis1    6/13/2005 2:38:41 PM
Numbers count - Why Britain must make a powerful case for economic reform in Europe

There is something almost too prosaic about statistics. Great debates will be held in Europe this week over subjects as immediate and profound as opportunity, poverty, and welfare, and yet much of the rhetoric will be without statistical foundation, and the only numeric competition will be in the stream of adverbs and adjectives deployed to make eloquent but unsustainable arguments.
Britain will doubtless suffer more ignominy over its rebate, but far more important issues will remain undiscussed. Absurd claims by several countries, in particular by France and Germany, will, meanwhile, go unchallenged to the detriment of their own citizens and of the region.

It is clear that Europe is beginning to divide along two lines, the new and the old, and the successful and the failing, and yet the old and failing are determined that the new and successful should abide by standards that have hobbled their own countries; it is vested, institutional interest taken to the extreme. There is, however, nothing high-minded about the lowest common denominator, as figures provided by Eurostat, the European Union's statistical agency, make clear. For all the fine talk about ?fairness?, which of the following three countries is fairer in providing opportunities to its more mature citizens and to women: France, Germany or Britain? In 2004, the employment rate of ?older workers?, those aged between 55 and 64, in France was 37.3 per cent, in Germany 39.2 per cent, and in Britain 56.2 per cent. And what of women? The female employment rate last year in France was 57.4 per cent, in Germany 59.9 per cent, and in Britain 65.6 per cent. What European directive has Britain adopted to ensure that its citizens have more opportunities in life? Flexibility in hiring (and in firing) is essential if companies and countries are to provide choices for their citizens.

And what of the working poor, those who have clearly taken up the challenge to better themselves and their families? Are they better treated in countries that are conscious of ?welfare? or in Anglo-Saxon, for which read ?brutal?, Britain? The tax rate on ?low wage earners?, as defined by Eurostat, was 45.4 per cent last year in Germany, 32.6 in France and 26.4 per cent in Britain. Surely there must a category in which these two pillars of European society outperform Britain? Indeed there is ? unemployment, which is 4.7 per cent in Britain, 10.2 per cent in France, and 11.8 per cent in Germany. At least the jobless on the Continent have the consolation of their leaders? philosophising.

These figures have been duly noted by the new entrants to the EU, whose citizens were endlessly and unfairly caricatured in the French referendum campaign. ?Are we so frightening?? a Hungarian cabinet minister asked in Germany last week. And where are the ?Polish plumbers? so mocked by the French establishment? Britain's creaking, moaning pipes are calling out urgently for them.

The British Government has created a fairer society than that overseen by many of its European allies, and Tony Blair must forcefully make that argument this week as the region?s leaders contemplate a continent without a constitution that would have institutionalised the poverty of the vulnerable and provided bragging rights for a sanctimonious elite. That the sanctimony and smugness is callous and unjustified is statistically provable.

- An excellent article from todays copy of The Times
link

Nemesis

 
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fall out    RE:Why Britain must make a Powerful case for Economic Reform in Europe!   6/14/2005 8:51:50 AM
and despite all their failings they both have bigger economies than Britain. however, i do agree with you that they both need some bloody big reforms and catch up with the rest of the west, deregulation, privatisation, taxation reform, etc. but, Europe's biggest problem, and that includes Britain, is their fertility rate problem, overall, at least western Europe, populations are becoming way to old and beginning to stagnate badly, i dont think you want to go down Japan and Russia's road, ie decreasing populations and decreasing workforce, etc, etc.
 
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Alexis    Why Britain must make a Powerful case for Economic Reform in Europe, that is Giving Up of the Euro !   6/14/2005 9:56:10 AM
The differences that you underline between Britain on the one hand, France or Germany on the other hand, on job creation and growth are very real. They give hope as to possible healing of our high unemployment and puny growth. However, they have little if anything to do with privatization, destroying social security and easy firing of employees. The best proof is, again, in statistics : Britain, Denmark and Sweden do not look like each other when social services are concerned, nor when public expenses as a percentage of GDP are concerned (far higher in Denmark or Sweden), nor when overall productivity is concerned (Denmark's and Sweden's are higher). Yet all three have far better economic performance than the rest of the EU when unemployment and growth are concerned. Ah yes, they DO have a common point ... all three have kept control of their respective national currencies, henceforth of their monetary policy ... None of them have chosen a strict monetary policy aiming solely at low inflation, like the countries that were to take part in the Euro have been doing since the beginning of the 1990s... Having kept the sterling is the true advantage Britain has over such countries as France and Germany. Other factors are not all in Britain's favor (see hourly productivity, which continues to lag far behind France's or Germany's), but this correct policy decision did most of the work to ensure British economy would grow and create jobs far more efficiently.
 
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MadRat    RE:Why Britain must... Europe! -fallout   6/14/2005 10:59:51 AM
Its fecundity you mean, not fertility rate.
 
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dummnutzer    RE:Why Britain must... Europe! -fallout   6/14/2005 12:16:36 PM
This article is published by Murdoch. His media group produces junk for the stupid (The Sun, FoxNews). The UK reformed while getting a special financial deal by the EU, i.e. the rebate paid mostly by ´Old Europe´. The Brits should stop accepting the rebate before lecturing its paymasters.
 
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oldbutnotwise    RE:Why Britain must... Europe! -fallout   6/14/2005 12:45:34 PM
hum a baised view on this i think. the rebate was becasue the UK was paying far more than it recieved. It still is. check your figures If you want to be fair, which is what i assume you do, the rebate is 2/3 of the difference between what the UK pays and what it recieves. even with this rebate it pays more than france a country that FS and bluewings keep telling us is better off economically. we have said we will look at the rebate if france will look at the CAP, why are the EU subsidising what is certainaly one of the most wealthy country in the EU to the degree it is? the rebate was agreed so that france didnt have to go back to the people and say we have lost the farm subsidies! THe UK paid last year 1 billion euros more than france when all subsidies and rebates are taken into account, so why should the UK pay even more into the EU? so france can take it back out? the rebate is going to be worth approx 20 billion euros in 5 years time as the UK takes even less out in subsidies, while france refuses to negotiate on the CAP, If anything, the culprate is France attempting to use the EU as a prop for its inefficeint farms
 
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oldbutnotwise    RE:Why Britain must... Europe! -fallout   6/14/2005 12:47:47 PM
PS during the reforms you mention the UK was ALLWAYS a net contributor to the EU in other words we paid more each year than we got compair this with spain you have NEVER paid more than they recieved
 
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dummnutzer    RE:Why Britain must... Europe! -fallout   6/14/2005 4:01:37 PM
Defending the UK rebate by blaming French CAP abuse is a little bit like a burglar pointing out the forgeries committed by someone else. Of all the ´rich´ EU nations with little agriculture like the UK, Denmark, Germany etc. only the UK got such a special deal to pay less than they should under the general rules. This shortfall is being made up by the other net contributors, mostly ´Old Europe´, paying more. In the EU, the rich countries pay more than they receive. The UK wiggled out of this obligation (Thatcher´s blackmail campaign ´I want my money back´): They are having a free meal financed by nations they intend to lecture on economics. I smell hipocrisy.
 
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Lawman    RE:Why Britain must... Europe! -fallout   6/14/2005 6:11:33 PM
I am sorry dummnutzer, but you are not correct. The UK has never received more than it paid, and simply saying that 'old Europe' is paying Britain is simply not true. Remember, the UK is not very committed to the EU, and could just pull out if push comes to shove... Economically, the UK would be better off forming its own EU rival, with the countries of Eastern Europe, and it would still be better off! It would also make a lot more sense, in terms of the national interest - it is understandable for the UK to help Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary et al, it does not make sense for the UK taxpayer to pay French farmers!
 
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perfectgeneral    RE:Why Britain must... Europe! -fallout   6/14/2005 6:47:55 PM
The scandanavian states would also like to see the CAP scrapped. Those other countries with good economies. Maybe the good economists are on to something?
 
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addo    RE:Why Britain must... Europe! -fallout   6/15/2005 6:55:05 AM
A new Union should be formed. US - Britain - Scandinavia - Some eastern European states.
 
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MadRat    Partial unions   6/15/2005 8:34:46 AM
The EU should have set itself up into smaller trade blocs and worked from there. Northern Europe has a reasonable reason to want to form a trade bloc. Southern Europe has a reason. Western Europe does, too. Central Europe can find plenty of commonality for another one. And I'm sure if Eastern Europe was to join they'd have ample reason for a trade bloc, too. But the whole of Europe is not served by a one size fits all solution. Smaller trade blocs should have been set up and then agreements between blocs would have made more sense. The trading partnerships would allow a more consistent fairness across member states and protect old economies from new ones and vice versa. Countries like France should not prop up a Poland and a Poland shouldn't have to prop up a Portugal. But Spain, Portugal, England, Ireland and France have close enough proximity to form a trade union. And Sweden, Denmark, and Norway would have ample reason to make a trade union and might invite in Finland or others as well. And nothing should stop members from joining multiple alliances. Spain might join a southern alliance as well as a western one. The concept of the EU was to unify Europe into a single powerful trade bloc. Instead it has divided Europe into a bunch of competing factions that now want more for less. If the unions made sense then countries wouldn't have such a complicated scam going and less bitching and moaning would take place. By creating multiple smaller blocs the interopability would have created a stronger overall Europe.
 
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Lawman    RE:Partial unions   6/15/2005 8:46:29 AM
What about a UK-Netherlands-Denmark? All countries that are annoyed about paying over the odds to prop up other countries. I do like the idea of extending NAFTA to the UK, with the UK withdrawing from the EU, but staying in the EEA (European Economic Area). This would give the maximum benefit to the UK, without making the UK pay for French farmers. It would give the UK much greater freedom, both economically, and socially, but also from a security point of view - the UK could seal its borders, and control entry, preventing the avalanche of asylum seekers coming in from France.
 
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dummnutzer    RE:Why Britain must.. -Lawmen   6/15/2005 9:10:41 AM
Q:"I am sorry dummnutzer, but you are not correct. The UK has never received more than it paid, and simply saying that 'old Europe' is paying Britain is simply not true. Remember, the UK is not very committed to the EU, and could just pull out if push comes to shove..." I did not claim that they received more, but that they payed less than any other ´rich country´. This shortfall had to be made up by by other ´rich´ countries, e.g. Benelux, Germany and Denmark, paying more. So Germany etc. are subsidizing the UK right now. My deteriorating English language skills are likely to blame for this misunderstanding. ;-) A UK pullout is highly unlikely and more a spectre/wishfull thinking of the Eurosceptics than a real option. I still remember the begging of the Brits at the EU´s door - maybe it was a mistake by Germany to intervene on their behalf ... Limited economic partnerships have one problem: They give competing ecomic powers a point to apply a wedge. Look how Canada is abused by the US, routinely ignoring WTO-rulings in favour of Canada e.g. in the Softwood lumber area. The united EU was able to counter Bush´s steel tarifs - other countries had to suffer. The EU countries including Germany and the UK are too small to deal with economic powers a la the US and soon China as equal partners on their own, but united in the EU they are their equal. This has nothing to do with a superstate/Federal Europe, but is a simple matter of economic power.
 
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Lawman    RE:Why Britain must.. -Lawmen   6/15/2005 9:28:25 AM
Why does everything seem to come down to a face off with the USA when Europe is discussed! The UK should never have joined the EU, especially given the fact that UK entry was only acheived by deceiving the UK public. In terms of the other countries 'subsidizing' the UK, that just shows that those countries lacked the guts to do what Margaret Thatcher did! She forced the EEC to give back some of the huge amount the UK pays. The UK should now withdraw from the EU, and join the EEA, and hopefully NAFTA. It would not be as difficult as some may think - all the UK needs to do is terminate the European Communities Act, but keep the existing EU-derived laws. Once the dust settles, the law simply modifies itself to take account of the end of EU power.
 
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dummnutzer    RE:Why Britain must.. -Lawmen   6/15/2005 9:50:53 AM
Q:"Why does everything seem to come down to a face off with the USA when Europe is discussed!" Because it is a very important trading partner who is quite willing to use its weight to get an unfair advantage. I consider Canada to be a very close ally of the US, and look how they are (mis-)treated. The relative power of the UK prevents major abuse by its European partners, but it would be a very junior partner in NAFTA indeed. Leaving the EU means loosing British influence on EU decisions. It would turn the UK into a bigger version of the Swiss: Implementing all EU directives to get much needed market access, with no input at all. This would realize a scenario the Eurosceptics fear: England being ruled by Brussels (via directives the UK cannot influence). The EU - without the superstate nonsense - is an economic necessity, if the European countries including the UK want to get a fair deal in international trade.
 
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