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Subject: How rank France in world power?
french stratege    4/23/2005 9:33:41 PM
o be a world power means to master a number of power tools and capacities: Economic power: France have fourth largest economy in world, even UK GNP seems on a par.But in fact France has a slightly bigger GDP in Puchasing Power Parity, a stronguer industry as its share in GNP is bigger, and especially in military usable industry (automotive, steel, microelectronic ...). Its trade balnce is positive unless US and UK.We benefit of Euro in sense that in a crisis, Euro would not go down like pound.Our financial market is less sensitive to crisis than UK. Then our saving, gold and currencies reserves are higher. France has 43 companies in the WORLD FORTUNE 500 ranking, one more than Germany and much more than UK or Italy.For example UK industry is stronguer than France in prescription drug but you can not use that for war. War potential: US: 100; Japan: 55, Germany ,40, France 25, UK 20. Diplomatic influence: should I said that French diplomatic network is world class and second to US only (with better skills).That our foreign aid is higher than UK or US in GNP %? That we have VETO right in UNO? That our cultural influence is world second after US? Thank to our industry we can substitute to US or Russia to deliver to a friend the whole set of weapons INDEPENDANTLY (from airfighters to subs via tank or C4ISR) and can shift power balance in any area.WE ARE THE SECOND WESTERN INDEPENDANT SUPPLIER AFTER US FOR CAPACITIES. We are the only Euro nation to have the full INDEPENDANT world reco network which is second to USA. RECO satellites, Telecom satellites (bandwith second to US), ELINT satellites, DSP satellites (in 2008), METEO satellites, spy ships, 30 ELINT ground station in word with 2 dedicated to spy US satelites, SPACE SURVEILLANCE RADAR. An unkown assets is that we are the only nation with US which can produce any currencies in world (to make false money in perfect imitation - we are the best in Europe for money technology) Sensitivity to energy imports: Our oil company is fourth in world and we have ROBUST assets in non middle east areas like Gabon, Angola etc...We produce our oil industry heavy equipment and our industry is world second of US in this field. Our nuclear energy production is world second in world and give us independance on electricity.Our influence in Africa secure minerals imports. Sensitivity to embargo: France has world class semiconductors facilities and hold the more advanced Europe wafer fab (joint venture between Motorola, SGS Thomson and Philips). Our auto maker build 7,5 million car /year, we have Airbus main designed office in France and so on...Our industry is pretty well balanced and produce almost everything at world class. Then we are the only Euro nation with a launch pad and Euro leader in Space.So we do not depend on US or other nation. We produce the second set of weapons after US and we do not depend of any supplier. Military technology: we are mastering everything form nukes to C4ISR with a technological level recognised by US as world second (while UK is close after).Of course neither Japan, Germany or China enjoy such an advantage. Nukes: our nuclear force are world THIRD and we produce precise counterforce weapons INDEPENDANTLY.Good second strike ability.400 warheads vs 200 for UK.(and we have stored weapons we can reactivate).3 SSBN can strike anywhere in the world. Military skills: our war academy is renown with US and UK.Israelis send some generals to perfectionate. Should I remember that Saudia Arabia asked French to crush rebellion in Mecka and not to US or UK?Saudis special forces and military stalled two weeks before asking France help.We did it in two days with 70 commandos leading Saudi commando (and using combat nerve gaz killing 2000 rebels). Mitary capacities. Second world force projection from 2007 to 2012 as a single Cdg with 3E2C and 40 Rafales, protected by 19 frigates with top ASW, 6 SSN and 3 Horizon with ASTER 30 outperform anything UK have: Indeed UK has 2 ACTIVE small carriers (with limited self protection and 60 harriers), they will not have any BVR fighters with FA2 retirement, and not antiship capacity since Harrier GR7/9 have NO RADAR!! UK air force has an handfull of non operational EF supported by 63 old Tornado ADV.No medium range airdefense for their troops. They have more SSN (soon reduced to 8 only) and military transport but we rely on civilian military prepared transports from french companies and our overseas bases to accumulate locally . ONLY US, UK, Russia and Japan has a sub force strong enough to put in danger our fleet. In fact we can crush any OPFOR airforce of 100 SU27/Mig29 (plus old MIGS or SU) without AWAC, ONLY relying on Cdg (even I agree a second would be better and needed). Most of nation do not have ENOUGH YAKHONT equivalent missiles to crush our naval force until our second carrier is operational. UK is unable to do that and in 2010 only 4 T45 will have entered service
 
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ret13f    RE:ret13f, libyan airspace... convoy from chad   5/9/2005 11:13:41 PM
kinda like germany getting to france through belgium and netherlands.
 
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Jodhpur    RE:ret13f, libyan airspace... convoy from chad---FS/BW   5/9/2005 11:25:33 PM
GoG: ?i have spent 2 months in that region of the world and it is true that the desert area is poorly guarded and virtually uninhabited. it is also true that france has a military presence in chad and knows the territory intimately.? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Besides FS, I understand that you've operated/tested the LeClercs in Qatar, U.A.E and that in terms of reliability (and fire-control) it is an superb tank but the desert conditions are worse in that part of the world than the Gulf. The ?shamal? in the gulf is nothing compared to the ?ghiblis? of Libya/Fezzan. When Libya invaded Chad it followed the North-South roads didn?t it? You?re headed north-east- how many kilometers till you reach the Nile? You said Rommel covered 2000 kms but didn't he stick to the coastal roads (east-west)? Anyway assuming we have a green light from Gixx, 1) where is the command, control, communications, and intelligence base is for this land operation? 2) Where are the assembly and launch points for the invasion from Chad? 3) What is the objective of the Chad army group?
 
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Jodhpur    Or...   5/9/2005 11:47:14 PM
...you could scrub the Chad operation and just go for a beachhead in the Sinai. I believe the Sinai is relatively de-militarized as per Camp David. Plus they are several choke points (mitla pass being famous) which could protect your forces during the build-up. The "egiptions" would then be obliged by the "arab street" to go on the offensive. Assuming you really have air-superiority. Ofcourse you'd have to bridge the canal but its been done before in '73, twice, by both the egyptians and the israelis.
 
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Bluewings    RE:ground attack   5/10/2005 1:01:59 AM
FS told us how France might land from the Med Sea . See again : link I believe that I made a pretty good case against the saturation attack by HARMs and HARPOONs which would not work : "HARMs cannot be steered and under certain conditions may not guide on the target that they were originally fired. Also, they do not have the ability to discern friend from foe. Therefore, the precision detection capability of the launching platform and its human operator in the loop are key elements ensuring weapon effectiveness and the prevention of fratricide. The translation of what the launching aircraft sees to what the ARM sees is paramount. Several unique factors effect ARM employment. Most significant are the ambiguities in the radar frequency spectrum which cause friendly, enemy, and neutral radar emissions to appear similar. Ambiguities make accurate platform targeting and missile guidance difficult. These ambiguities will continue to worsen as the frequency spectrum becomes more dense and overcrowded. A limited amount of frequencies is suitable for radar operations, and as newer systems evolve, more emitters will overlap. In some instances, high target area activity in a dense emitter environment may cause pit task saturation and decrease targeting efficiency." --> which IS the case Gixxx . Furthermore , HARM is HIGHLY jammable due to its aquisition system itself . Same goes for the HARPOONs and other Sea-Skimmers . The French Fleet has simply too many Air defense missiles by comparaison to what Egypt can fire before to be engaged by French CAPs . The environment would be heavily jammed ~as everybody can guess~ which bring me to ask the RIGHT question : Could the Egyptian Fighters get a lock on the Fleet to start with ? And on which Ships ? If you followed the thread , you know that France has as many as 40+ surface Warships in the area and this is without counting the support Ships . How can a pilot from 100-150nm away knows what and where to shoot at , especially in heavy jamming ?? It is why FS and I said that we could loose some forward assets but CdG and other ASTER platforms will NOT sail ahead of the Fleet ! Gixxx 's plan is nothing more than an "odd bet" , counting on luck more than anything else . Now , would Egypt really send 60% of her AF over the Med with the hope to kill 1 or 2 or even 3 Ships ? I doubt it ... Cheers .
 
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gixxxerking    RE:ground attack   5/10/2005 1:24:55 AM
Again bluewings you know nothing about what you are talking about. Those HARMS will GUT your defence and leave you completely vulnerable to Harpoon and AS-5. Both missiles can be fired on a bearing only attack and believe me they will hit. FS ill advised landing is laughable at best. A saturday morning cartoon maybe! Do you really think a token Carrier protected by 2 AAW frigates can survive an attack that would challenge even Aegis? Please, dont make us all laugh at you. No French vessel could come within 200nm of Egypt and live. But then again argueing with you is pointless since we already know you are ignorant of these matters. link You will make a great Brochure Statistic for LM sales of F-16 if you come anywhere within 500 miles. Go pick on the Ivory Coast. They are more in the class of advasaries you could deal with outside your borders.
 
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gixxxerking    Bring it on!   5/10/2005 1:55:15 AM
The French here seem to think they can actually pull off an amphibious landing against Egypt! Nevermind the fact that the Egyptian Airforce can destroy any possible combination of French ships in the Med. Sobering thoughts for any French landing attempt: link link link link link link link Sunbathers with an attitude. Not to worry there is only several hundred! link link I'm so confident that France would fail in an amphibious landing I would sunbathe on the beachhead during the landing. I doubt I would hear a single gunshot!
 
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gixxxerking    Mobility   5/10/2005 3:18:18 AM
Once the location of any beachhead is approximated, Egyptian forces can quickly move massive amounts of armor to key terrain: link Artillery Support: link link Egypt also has many thousands of these weapons as well. Keep in mind that the French are attempting this with only 160 CAS sorties! link Note how easily deployable! link Thses are deployable and can be operated by remote control. link Not to be neglected and critically important because these weapons are able to damage even light armor and are hidden with ease! (just seeing this picture makes tears well up in my eyes. Oh I love this gun!) link (a HUMMER or GAZ can deploy these with ease) link Now one must understand that the Entire North cost will be littered with these: link link link and of coarse many of these guys: link Of coarse I could go on but for what? Does anybody think that 160 CAS and the ground force BW and FS mention can survive here? And then how about SEAD? link link link link link Folks this isnt the type of operation a nation can just throw together and just make it work. In fact Egypt has the artillery firepower to cover almost all potential beachheads with gun and rocket artillery. 160 Sorties can hardly touch that! Contingency for successful French landing: link Persistent agent attack on the beachhead. BUt hardly necessary because a landing would obviously be repulsed. But the capabbility will be announced forcing you attack in MOPP gear. Will even prepare special payload of CS gas to make you have to At least wear mask. Ever run uphill in a protective mask while being shot at? P.S. still looking for answers French Stratege! The links below are questions that must be answered prior to discussing any land war. link link
 
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gixxxerking    RE:Mobility   5/10/2005 3:48:36 AM
Ok the following post were just some insight into some of the equipment used in a land defense. But my strategy is to preposition ammunition and supplies within resonable distances of the most suitable beacheads. A ten day stock pile shall be prepared. Also vehicle fighting positions overlooking the beacheads will be dug and reinforced by engineers. Alternate positions will exist for all vehicle positions. rough field expedient air strips for C-130 will also be prepared. Due to the mobility of the Egyptian Army. NONE of the fighting positions will be manned except for security forces, anti-aircraft artillery and decoy armor. The decoy armor will be older tanks to be used as pill boxed and loaded with ammunition. Random rehearsals will be conducted in several well advertised defensive locations to draw media attention to Egypts defence, determind the amount of reaction time to go from garrison to fighting positions, to find any logistical SNAFUs, as much as possible, before the shooting starts and to Frighten the French Population. Also there will be battallion level combined arms live fire exercises conducted monthly. Plans for obstacles will be prepare however no obstacles will be deployed until FN moves south of Crete. Sections of road capable of supporting Mig-21 will be used to launch hidden Mig-21 in support of beachead defense. Engineers could quickly build hardened underground shelters which would contain 2 Mig-21. 25 such shelters distributed along the north coast in total will be constructed. All defensive works will be wired for communication incase radio communication is lost. At sea the most likely routes to the beacheads will be presurveyed for mines and mines will be deployed on civilian ships near where they would be deployed. An SSK will also be positioned off the coast and will have Harpoon SSMs. It will have the task of interdicting amphibious ships with suprise missile or torpedo attack.
 
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oldbutnotwise    RE:Mobility   5/10/2005 7:15:32 AM
Gix I cannot understand why you are saying that the saudies can defeat a french attack when you cliam the whole of europe couldnt defeat a us attack when the french would be in a better tacticle situation than the us would be!
 
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dudley    RE:How rank France in world power?   5/10/2005 7:51:26 AM
French Military Prowess Revisited President Bush and Secretary Rumsfeld may be upset that the French are not "assisting" us in this fight, but out here at the tip of the spear, there is nothing but jubilation at their absence. Last thing we need is to be carrying the French on our shoulders. A cursory review of French military history reveals the following: 1 - Gallic Wars - Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2,000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian. 2 - Hundred Years War - Mostly lost, saved at last by a female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates The First Rule of French Warfare: "French armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman." 3 - Italian Wars - Lost. France becomes the first and only country to ever lose two wars when fighting Italians. 4 - Wars of Religion - France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots. 5 - Thirty Years War - France is technically not a participant but still manages to get invaded. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her. 6 - War of Devolution - Tied. Frenchmen take to wearing red flowerpots as chapeaux. 7 - The Dutch War - Tied. Dutch farmers and tulip growers are tougher than they look. 8 - War of the Augsburg League/King William's War/French and Indian War - Lost, but claimed as a tie. Three ties in a row induces deluded Francophiles the world over to label the period as the height of French military power. 9 - War of the Spanish Succession - Lost. The War also gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved every since. 10 - American Revolution - In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw far more action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads to the Second Rule of French Warfare; " France only wins when America does most of the fighting." 11 - French Revolution - Won, primarily due the fact that the opponent was also French. 12 - The Napoleonic Wars - Lost. Temporary victories (remember the First Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for the Russian winter, Prussian grenadiers or a British footwear designer. 13 - The Franco-Prussian War - Lost. For the first, but certainly not the last time, Germany plays the role of drunk frat boy to France 's ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night. 14 - World War I - Invaded, humiliated and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States. Winds up a tie for les francaise. Thousands of French women find out what it's like to not only sleep with a winner, but one who doesn't call her "Fraulein." Sadly, the American fascination with personal hygiene (a fascination totally foreign to French women) incites widespread use of condoms by American soldiers, thus precluding any improvement in the French bloodline. 15 - World War II - A decisive defeat even by French standards. Hitler and the German Youth spend Christmas time sleeping soundly through the winter, then arouse themselves to conquer France in six weeks. Hitler dances in front of the Eiffel Tower, while the French command staff retreats to Algeria to institute a crash language program to teach French privates how to say "I surrender" in German and French generals to say "We surrender" in German. Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song and some small portion of the German work ethic. De Gaulle of it all... 16 - First Vietnamese war (in Vietnamese circles, known as "the scrimmage", or "the exhibition game" where the varsity squad is kept on the sideline to see how the second string will play) - Lost. French soldiers, fresh off their four year occupation by the Germans, catch a terminal case of Dien Bien Flu. 17 - Algerian rebellion - Lost. First time an Arab army has beaten a Western army since the Crusades, and produces the first rule of modern Islamic warfare: "We can always beat the French." A nice phrase, but it lacks something in originality, since it is also the first rule of warfare for the Italians, Russians, Prussians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese, Native Americans and capitalists. 18 - War on Terrorism - Lost. Incensed at not being included in the original "Axis of Evil," France refuses to participate. When it becomes clear that this is a "no-kidding war," Jacques Chirac looks at his cards and immediately surrenders to that old warhorse, Gerhard Schroeder. For good measure, he also surrenders to five million illegal immigrants from Algeria. The moral of the story is - give thanks to God on high that the French are not helping us!
 
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