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Subject: How rank France in world power?
french stratege    4/23/2005 9:33:41 PM
o be a world power means to master a number of power tools and capacities: Economic power: France have fourth largest economy in world, even UK GNP seems on a par.But in fact France has a slightly bigger GDP in Puchasing Power Parity, a stronguer industry as its share in GNP is bigger, and especially in military usable industry (automotive, steel, microelectronic ...). Its trade balnce is positive unless US and UK.We benefit of Euro in sense that in a crisis, Euro would not go down like pound.Our financial market is less sensitive to crisis than UK. Then our saving, gold and currencies reserves are higher. France has 43 companies in the WORLD FORTUNE 500 ranking, one more than Germany and much more than UK or Italy.For example UK industry is stronguer than France in prescription drug but you can not use that for war. War potential: US: 100; Japan: 55, Germany ,40, France 25, UK 20. Diplomatic influence: should I said that French diplomatic network is world class and second to US only (with better skills).That our foreign aid is higher than UK or US in GNP %? That we have VETO right in UNO? That our cultural influence is world second after US? Thank to our industry we can substitute to US or Russia to deliver to a friend the whole set of weapons INDEPENDANTLY (from airfighters to subs via tank or C4ISR) and can shift power balance in any area.WE ARE THE SECOND WESTERN INDEPENDANT SUPPLIER AFTER US FOR CAPACITIES. We are the only Euro nation to have the full INDEPENDANT world reco network which is second to USA. RECO satellites, Telecom satellites (bandwith second to US), ELINT satellites, DSP satellites (in 2008), METEO satellites, spy ships, 30 ELINT ground station in word with 2 dedicated to spy US satelites, SPACE SURVEILLANCE RADAR. An unkown assets is that we are the only nation with US which can produce any currencies in world (to make false money in perfect imitation - we are the best in Europe for money technology) Sensitivity to energy imports: Our oil company is fourth in world and we have ROBUST assets in non middle east areas like Gabon, Angola etc...We produce our oil industry heavy equipment and our industry is world second of US in this field. Our nuclear energy production is world second in world and give us independance on electricity.Our influence in Africa secure minerals imports. Sensitivity to embargo: France has world class semiconductors facilities and hold the more advanced Europe wafer fab (joint venture between Motorola, SGS Thomson and Philips). Our auto maker build 7,5 million car /year, we have Airbus main designed office in France and so on...Our industry is pretty well balanced and produce almost everything at world class. Then we are the only Euro nation with a launch pad and Euro leader in Space.So we do not depend on US or other nation. We produce the second set of weapons after US and we do not depend of any supplier. Military technology: we are mastering everything form nukes to C4ISR with a technological level recognised by US as world second (while UK is close after).Of course neither Japan, Germany or China enjoy such an advantage. Nukes: our nuclear force are world THIRD and we produce precise counterforce weapons INDEPENDANTLY.Good second strike ability.400 warheads vs 200 for UK.(and we have stored weapons we can reactivate).3 SSBN can strike anywhere in the world. Military skills: our war academy is renown with US and UK.Israelis send some generals to perfectionate. Should I remember that Saudia Arabia asked French to crush rebellion in Mecka and not to US or UK?Saudis special forces and military stalled two weeks before asking France help.We did it in two days with 70 commandos leading Saudi commando (and using combat nerve gaz killing 2000 rebels). Mitary capacities. Second world force projection from 2007 to 2012 as a single Cdg with 3E2C and 40 Rafales, protected by 19 frigates with top ASW, 6 SSN and 3 Horizon with ASTER 30 outperform anything UK have: Indeed UK has 2 ACTIVE small carriers (with limited self protection and 60 harriers), they will not have any BVR fighters with FA2 retirement, and not antiship capacity since Harrier GR7/9 have NO RADAR!! UK air force has an handfull of non operational EF supported by 63 old Tornado ADV.No medium range airdefense for their troops. They have more SSN (soon reduced to 8 only) and military transport but we rely on civilian military prepared transports from french companies and our overseas bases to accumulate locally . ONLY US, UK, Russia and Japan has a sub force strong enough to put in danger our fleet. In fact we can crush any OPFOR airforce of 100 SU27/Mig29 (plus old MIGS or SU) without AWAC, ONLY relying on Cdg (even I agree a second would be better and needed). Most of nation do not have ENOUGH YAKHONT equivalent missiles to crush our naval force until our second carrier is operational. UK is unable to do that and in 2010 only 4 T45 will have entered service
 
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Bluewings    RE:Bluewings   5/3/2005 8:38:03 PM
Gixxx , you have another D**Khead with you in the person of Nappy . Cheers .
 
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Godofgamblers    RE:France IS NOT a world power. NAPPY   5/3/2005 8:52:12 PM
"The U.S. had to send it's forces halfway around the world to take care of an EUROPEAN PROBLEM. nappy, dude, politics was the problem there, not military force. i don't think this point needs arguing. remember NATO... France needs to wake up and realize that it's just a small country capable of maybe "messing around" in some very minor power country or possibly a large settlement of roaming elephants." hyperbole undermines your arguments, nappy, it doesn't strengthen them :) To be blatantly honest, France is like an old prize fighter who is way beyond it's time. The U.S. just whispers sweet words into it and tells it that it's "still cool", because it doesn't want France to hurt itself or do something stupid. Thats all... i think this has been discussed before; what defines a superpower. france still fulfills many of the criteria and is on the way up with the EU, not down. thus, the metaphor of a fighter past his prime does not hold up. if you base your argument on lack of "political will", then you can strike out russia as a superpower or even the US if it gets a weak democratic prez. you have to admit, Nap, that's not enough to strike a country off the list. regards
 
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Godofgamblers    RE:bluewings    5/3/2005 8:53:56 PM
voyons, voyons, chef. prends pas ca trop au coeur! too much collateral damage on this thread !
 
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Bluewings    RE:bluewings    5/3/2005 8:57:46 PM
Faut pas pousser , merde alors ! They 're pissing me off by insulting the French ! Why they don 't JUST insult me ? Cheers .
 
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mithradates    France cannot prevail without using nukes   5/3/2005 9:00:06 PM
Without at least LIMITED usage of nuclear weapons, France simply cannot win. Egypt's military is simply too large, too modern, and too organized for France to destroy in a conventional conflict.
 
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JIMF    RE:France - U.S.   5/3/2005 9:01:59 PM
I second GodofGamblers appeal for civility. This has been an interesting thread lets try to keep the nationality bashing out of it. France lost 1.4 Million killed in World War 1 out of a total population of 40 Million. The U.S. has never, and I include the Civil War, experienced such catastrophic losses. The sons of that devestated generation were not able to hold off the German blitzkrieg, but the following passage offers a reasonable explanation. "In certain circumstances - and the Fall of France is a quintessential example of those circumstances - soldiers can be called upon to compensate for failures in pre-war and wartime leadership by fighting well. If they are to do this, clear and effective command is essential; but so are adequate preparation to meet the task at hand and sufficient modern equipment to do the job. The rank and file of the French Army, and Air Force lacked all three essentials in May and June 1940, and as a result they were unable to cope with the burden thrust upon them. In these circumstances their failure was hardly a dishonorable one" From "Military Misfortunes" Eliot A. Cohen and John Gooch
 
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Godofgamblers    CONCLUSION NAPPY TXAggie   5/3/2005 10:23:34 PM
how about this scenario: france slowly and laboriously prepares an invasion force at Djibouti and alerts egypt to this fact. in anticipation of a red sea amphibious assault, mass attacks of egyptian bases begin in earnest: cairo is reduced to ruins. the fleet takes sail and egypt is given the opportunity to surrender. let's face it: the chances of egypt continuing at this point are 50/50. let's assume they put on a brave face and reject the french call for surrender. at that point, THE REAL ATTACK comes from the mediterranean. french marines and foreign legionnaires land at alexandria, supplied by sea and land. the fleet in the red sea was a feinte, but not solely a feinte: it remains a sword of damocles over the heads of the egyptians: if they move their forces to fight the french in alexandria, the amphibious assault could still take place. the french red sea force places itself at a strategic distance, poised to move in if need be. the Cdg is in the Med Sea, a wild card which the french can play at any time, to support the landing at Alexandria or protect supply lines. threatened on two fronts and with daily sorties eroding their military capability, the egyptians are forced to the negotiating table. they are allow to allow two major french bases on their territory at their cost for 99 years and to make other concessions. the 'battle' is over. all the french bashing and jokes about 'trees on the champs d'elysee' are ways to avoid the obvious strategic advantage of the french: two pronged attack, ability to attack selected targets at will and naval and air bases within range of egypt's key cities. Mubarek sacks his generals and retires from public life. the end.
 
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AussieEngineer    RE:CONCLUSION NAPPY TXAggie   5/3/2005 10:41:04 PM
Jumping in a bit late here, but I don't think France has the numbers to invade Egypt. The US needed 150,000 men to invade Iraq. Iraq was much weaker than Egypt is. With Frances weaker air and naval assets and the fact that their invasion is going to have to be entirely amphibious, it would in all likely hood need even greater numbers to invade Egypt successfully.
 
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Godofgamblers    CONCLUSION --- addendum   5/3/2005 10:44:45 PM
mubarek retires to Monaco where he passes his few lucid hours at the Baccarat table, heard to mutter under his breath, "Damn those French!" every time he loses a hand.
 
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Godofgamblers    AGunner   5/3/2005 10:57:20 PM
hold on, you're referring to GW2, right? what about GW1? iraq was much more powerful than egypt and the coalition had little, if any difficulty. i doubt anyone could refute that the marouins and the FFL could take alexandria within 72 hours. it would be the staging base. the rest would be history, IMO, of course.
 
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