Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Armed Forces of the World Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: How rank France in world power?
french stratege    4/23/2005 9:33:41 PM
o be a world power means to master a number of power tools and capacities: Economic power: France have fourth largest economy in world, even UK GNP seems on a par.But in fact France has a slightly bigger GDP in Puchasing Power Parity, a stronguer industry as its share in GNP is bigger, and especially in military usable industry (automotive, steel, microelectronic ...). Its trade balnce is positive unless US and UK.We benefit of Euro in sense that in a crisis, Euro would not go down like pound.Our financial market is less sensitive to crisis than UK. Then our saving, gold and currencies reserves are higher. France has 43 companies in the WORLD FORTUNE 500 ranking, one more than Germany and much more than UK or Italy.For example UK industry is stronguer than France in prescription drug but you can not use that for war. War potential: US: 100; Japan: 55, Germany ,40, France 25, UK 20. Diplomatic influence: should I said that French diplomatic network is world class and second to US only (with better skills).That our foreign aid is higher than UK or US in GNP %? That we have VETO right in UNO? That our cultural influence is world second after US? Thank to our industry we can substitute to US or Russia to deliver to a friend the whole set of weapons INDEPENDANTLY (from airfighters to subs via tank or C4ISR) and can shift power balance in any area.WE ARE THE SECOND WESTERN INDEPENDANT SUPPLIER AFTER US FOR CAPACITIES. We are the only Euro nation to have the full INDEPENDANT world reco network which is second to USA. RECO satellites, Telecom satellites (bandwith second to US), ELINT satellites, DSP satellites (in 2008), METEO satellites, spy ships, 30 ELINT ground station in word with 2 dedicated to spy US satelites, SPACE SURVEILLANCE RADAR. An unkown assets is that we are the only nation with US which can produce any currencies in world (to make false money in perfect imitation - we are the best in Europe for money technology) Sensitivity to energy imports: Our oil company is fourth in world and we have ROBUST assets in non middle east areas like Gabon, Angola etc...We produce our oil industry heavy equipment and our industry is world second of US in this field. Our nuclear energy production is world second in world and give us independance on electricity.Our influence in Africa secure minerals imports. Sensitivity to embargo: France has world class semiconductors facilities and hold the more advanced Europe wafer fab (joint venture between Motorola, SGS Thomson and Philips). Our auto maker build 7,5 million car /year, we have Airbus main designed office in France and so on...Our industry is pretty well balanced and produce almost everything at world class. Then we are the only Euro nation with a launch pad and Euro leader in Space.So we do not depend on US or other nation. We produce the second set of weapons after US and we do not depend of any supplier. Military technology: we are mastering everything form nukes to C4ISR with a technological level recognised by US as world second (while UK is close after).Of course neither Japan, Germany or China enjoy such an advantage. Nukes: our nuclear force are world THIRD and we produce precise counterforce weapons INDEPENDANTLY.Good second strike ability.400 warheads vs 200 for UK.(and we have stored weapons we can reactivate).3 SSBN can strike anywhere in the world. Military skills: our war academy is renown with US and UK.Israelis send some generals to perfectionate. Should I remember that Saudia Arabia asked French to crush rebellion in Mecka and not to US or UK?Saudis special forces and military stalled two weeks before asking France help.We did it in two days with 70 commandos leading Saudi commando (and using combat nerve gaz killing 2000 rebels). Mitary capacities. Second world force projection from 2007 to 2012 as a single Cdg with 3E2C and 40 Rafales, protected by 19 frigates with top ASW, 6 SSN and 3 Horizon with ASTER 30 outperform anything UK have: Indeed UK has 2 ACTIVE small carriers (with limited self protection and 60 harriers), they will not have any BVR fighters with FA2 retirement, and not antiship capacity since Harrier GR7/9 have NO RADAR!! UK air force has an handfull of non operational EF supported by 63 old Tornado ADV.No medium range airdefense for their troops. They have more SSN (soon reduced to 8 only) and military transport but we rely on civilian military prepared transports from french companies and our overseas bases to accumulate locally . ONLY US, UK, Russia and Japan has a sub force strong enough to put in danger our fleet. In fact we can crush any OPFOR airforce of 100 SU27/Mig29 (plus old MIGS or SU) without AWAC, ONLY relying on Cdg (even I agree a second would be better and needed). Most of nation do not have ENOUGH YAKHONT equivalent missiles to crush our naval force until our second carrier is operational. UK is unable to do that and in 2010 only 4 T45 will have entered service
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest

gixxxerking    Conclussion of Original debate?   5/3/2005 2:15:05 PM
Oh and all this changing to new equipment and modifying you plan mean you acknowledge that your original plan would fail. That implies that you acknowledge you cannot now or with what France is likely to have in 2009 invade and conquer Egypt. What we debate from this point is only for fun now as both of our new orders of battle cannot account for economic and political reality of 2009 which could make any hypothetical war and its outcome go one way or the other. Do you agree to this? Does anyone else agree with this? Thoughts please. Regards Gixxx
 
Quote    Reply

french stratege    Part 2-1   5/3/2005 2:29:15 PM
We have established we can deliver 1000 tons of fuel by tankers 1000 miles away. 14 C135, 22 C160 NG (plus 2 to 4 A330 probably with refueling pods). To perform a raid we need 8 tons to 10 tons of fuel per aircraft depennding load. Some Rafale or M2000 Mk5 in pure air to air configuration and 3/4 drop tanks do not need airefueling the first day on the way to Egypt .And 4 tons on return way.Cdg plane do not need to be refueled or a little using buddy refueling from Super Etendard. In fact after calculation our maximum limit is 1140 tons of fuel.Saying we use 1000 tons in refueling capacity: So we can use for example: Air to air: 20 Rafale+ 30 M2000-5 (3 tanks): 4*50 tons=200 refueling at come back remains 800 tons: Air to ground: 20 Rafale so 160 tons and 64 M2000D so 640 tons. Plus 20 Rafale from Cdg with Buddy refueling of 1,5 tons each from 8 superEtendard in one way and the same at return (bombing and air to air). Grand total: 154 aircraft MINIMUM at the first wave with good load.Then 2 waves at 154 planes then reducing to 120 planes waves. NF: 8 rafale pure air to air with maximum stealth for E2C in flight with 4 tanks jettisoned (no refueling=NF) sparhead : 30 minutes before main wave (MW) LOW RCS configurations. NF/MW: 30 M2000 Mk5 (3 tanks and 6 mica) NF: 12 Rafale with 1 scalp (or Appache) and 4 tanks then air to air: 15 minutes before main waves (command, E2C on ground, blocking runways with Appache) Cdg ; 20 Rafale with 3 scalps/Apache then air to air (6 mica): 15 minutes before main waves (command, E2C on ground,blocking runways with Appache) with refueling: Air to ground: 20 Rafale with 3 Appache/Scalp 54 M2000 with AASM targetting hardened F16 C/Ashelters/AA to air batteries.6 AASM each.324 AASM 10 M2000 with 2 offensive Carbone Jammer. All Rafale swith in pure air to air with 6 mica each after jettisoned their cruise missiles and tank.540 mica available on 90 fighters. 128 magic2/mica IR on M2000 D. This is minimal we can do probably 10% more, of much more if we have an airbase in Chyprus (or secretely in Lybia! Quadaffi hate Mubarrak!). E2C in flight is located by Elint, OTH radar and elint satellites prior battle , aerial battle coordinated by AWACs and E2C, .Egyptian order of battle assessed by Helios satelites, multistatic aerial radar (we have it in 2009!), essain satellites, OTH radar comandos, Horizon etc... 324 AASM plus 132 Scalp/Appache.20 offensive Carbone jammers with have been proved to be pretty efficient in NATO training.Some AASM are replaced in fact by EMP bombs (one per airfield and Patriot battery). If 64 appache: 32 runway destroyed for long hours.68 shelters (E2C, F16C, comandpost destroyed) by Scalp, 324 airplane shelters destroyed and antiair systems by AASM. Maybe we can have 10 supertendard more with 2 SCALPs if CdG 500 miles away. Remains 50 F16 and 1 E2C unable to fight before track are rebuild by enginners. Then second wave 6 hours latter.50 F16 shooted down and 100 destroyed in shelters. 50 F16 available for second wave, 1 E2C, and older aircrafts. A dozen french aircraft are missing. Then second wave! Glory is to come!
 
Quote    Reply

french stratege    RE:Part 2-1   5/3/2005 2:42:34 PM
waves departures: Cdg (Creta), Corsica (or Italy, Greece etc..), Djibouti, Chad.4 axis of attack. The 64 M2000 are M2000D/N, and are in MW (amin wave) as the M2000-5 for protection.All have link 16 data exchange which allow firing without using aircraft on radar - passive mode firing).Like Israelis in 1967.Before false attack have been made to let Egyptian to be tired and lower their vigilance.Constant jamming. Frist wave attack at in night in the morning. Some AASM could also be used on pilots home.Some infiltrated commandos (with US passports?lol) kill some E2C/F16 C pilots or general at home to enforce effect.
 
Quote    Reply

french stratege    Blitz   5/3/2005 2:58:40 PM
Indian navy is going to be close of French with a superiority in SSk (up to 24 in THE NEXT 30 years).France will have in 2012 2 carriers more potent than indian one.It is intersting but later. We have to finnish Egypt, then Saudia Arabia, Iran first.
 
Quote    Reply

bazos    RE:How rank France in world power?   5/3/2005 3:02:11 PM
economic power!!!! dont make me laugh france is unable to give home to his citizens you dare to speak about economic power! dont forget to be an homeless man is typical problem of the third world, normally this problem is not not encountered in country whose economy is power!! !.First resolve the problem of homeless for your citizens,transport and you can talk in term of power.If a country cannot satisfy the needs of his people in the field of home , communication and health this country cannot be called a power.it is like a third world country because it is only in the third world countries you can encounter that kind of problem.
 
Quote    Reply

french stratege    Bazos   5/3/2005 3:06:58 PM
There is no homeless people in France: people who seem homeless are either: -Illegal immigrant which would be send back if caught -Associal people which refuse free housing from governement.law can not compell them to live in thse free houses. Make an other thread please instead of poluting this one
 
Quote    Reply

Ander320    RE:How rank France in world power?   5/3/2005 3:22:28 PM
"economic power!!!! dont make me laugh france is unable to give home to his citizens you dare to speak about economic power! dont forget to be an homeless man is typical problem of the third world, normally this problem is not not encountered in country whose economy is power!! !.First resolve the problem of homeless for your citizens,transport and you can talk in term of power.If a country cannot satisfy the needs of his people in the field of home , communication and health this country cannot be called a power.it is like a third world country because it is only in the third world countries you can encounter that kind of problem. " Have you vever been in France? Read my word: We do have performant Healthcare, public transport and Social housing. Homeless are found in all the country, from USA to China and France... But read my word in France you can be unemployed for ten years and style have an house, get free transport, healthcare and feed yourself. None of this thing would be top of the class of course but i'm not that sure the unemployed of every developped country can said the same.
 
Quote    Reply

gixxxerking    RE:Part 2-1   5/3/2005 4:26:16 PM
We have established the CdG is not survivable near Crete. So while you may launch a punishing first wave. All subsequent Sorties will be in support of rescue operations for the Drowning sailors of the CdG group. FS you must not advanced the CdG past the western tip of Crete. To do so closes the trap. You can clearly see that my missile attack was sufficient to overcome your AAW capability. I also saved a suprise for you should you decide to come too close to Egyptian waters and not heed my warning to stay out. The Suprise is the Ambassador Mk III: link in addition to the 20+ older missile boats that will swarm the CdG Group if it is near Crete. Hiding near the coast and armed with 100NM SSM these 4 boats alone add 48 additional inbounds. Also stalking your group moving west to east is the following fully modern SSK: link Which can fire Harpoons. Add 16 SSM to the inbound to my original number of missiles. BTW these SSK could easily penetrate and attack any French vessel in Toulon. In addition the Improved Romeo will also attack. Closer to Egyptian waters US and Chinese made Missile Frigates will make a SAG and move at flank speed to engage with Harpoon. FS this would be a huge naval battle in the Med Sea. Air Component- 24 F-16 escort CAP 48 ARM from the TU-16 24 ASM From the Tu-16 48 Harpoon Block 2 From F-16 then swing role to Fighter Sweep with AIM-9 after deploying Harpoon 24 Mig-21 with Rocket pods and Bombs. Sea Component- 20 SSM from the OSA 48 SSM From Ambassador Mk III 16 SSM from Moray SSK Torpedo From Romeo SAG of 6 FFG in reserve It is hard to say exactly what happens due to unpredictable circumstances. But this force is sufficient to destroy your CdG task force as an effective fighting force. Also the numbers you are quoting for Tankers represents 100% + of your air to air refueling assets. Combat loss or the Mechanical Failure of even 1 KC-135 would significantly reduce your strikers. And you do not have 100% readiness rate. Now to discuss suprise. Simply put you do not have it. You are using a brute force approach. Egypt has extremely sophisticated IAD including: link link So situational awareness is superb for Egypt. Your aircraft with their external ordinance will be detected by HUMINT sources as they takeoff and then soon after by ELINT. So you will be moving into a prepared defense. Especially as you overfly Sudan and Eritria because they are going to notice all the air to air refueling and Sortie interceptors which you will have to fight through or avoid. Either way that is a lot of electronic noise ans will allow a minimum or 2 hours prior alert as you have to travel 1000 miles to your closest targets. GW1 has shown the effectiveness of mobile missile launchers against the most sophisticated Satellite and human intelligence. So Patriot and SA-6 batteries will move into pre surveyed positions and await your inbound aircraft. Patriot is also proven against missle and Low RCS targets. So the cruise missiles will be attrited somewhat. Also you have to consider that the US has deployed many more Cruise missiles against Iraq ond Serbia who managed to have a good percentage of their Fighters Survive! Bring it on! PS- This air and sea battle will make for hundreds and possibly thousands of casualties and you have not done an amphibious landing yet!
 
Quote    Reply

french stratege    We attack first,    5/3/2005 4:49:18 PM
You only forgot that NON harpoon missile are uneffective(Tu 16 are joke), that CdG will move near Creta just before attack (we launch first), that we have 128 aster missile or maybe 176 is the third Horizon available , plus 390 crotale NG and numerous Mistral, and that we have E2C, SSN, Frigates ,Supertendard AM39, and Rafale to make a counter attack senseless using F16 or boat, after Egyptian lost 50% of F16 in first French attack .Not to mention they don't have our naval skills and equipment quality (sonar).Moreover I have seen they ordered only 32 harpoons.There is 500 miles away from Egypt.It seems you loose ground to come back with such arguments. Come Back to important points.
 
Quote    Reply

french stratege    RE:Part 2-1   5/3/2005 4:58:35 PM
Surprise yes as main wave is not comming close to Egypt, while our spearhead of quite stealthy 20 Rafales is destroying E2C undetected until the last hundred mile (they use computized terrain masking and low RCS plus Spectra), escorting F16 are exploding under unoticed mica IR (or EW), and key assets coming under radar coverage.When the stealthy scalp are launched, Egypt had not even noticed they are under attack.When the pilots scrambled to their F16, runway are exploding under Apache bomblet, radar are blinded by Carbone pods, burned by EMP or destroyed by Scalp or Armat, shelters start to explose in the coming minutes under AASM attack. 20 Egyptian bases holding F16 or E2C are under fire.
 
Quote    Reply



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2012StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy