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Subject: How rank France in world power?
french stratege    4/23/2005 9:33:41 PM
o be a world power means to master a number of power tools and capacities: Economic power: France have fourth largest economy in world, even UK GNP seems on a par.But in fact France has a slightly bigger GDP in Puchasing Power Parity, a stronguer industry as its share in GNP is bigger, and especially in military usable industry (automotive, steel, microelectronic ...). Its trade balnce is positive unless US and UK.We benefit of Euro in sense that in a crisis, Euro would not go down like pound.Our financial market is less sensitive to crisis than UK. Then our saving, gold and currencies reserves are higher. France has 43 companies in the WORLD FORTUNE 500 ranking, one more than Germany and much more than UK or Italy.For example UK industry is stronguer than France in prescription drug but you can not use that for war. War potential: US: 100; Japan: 55, Germany ,40, France 25, UK 20. Diplomatic influence: should I said that French diplomatic network is world class and second to US only (with better skills).That our foreign aid is higher than UK or US in GNP %? That we have VETO right in UNO? That our cultural influence is world second after US? Thank to our industry we can substitute to US or Russia to deliver to a friend the whole set of weapons INDEPENDANTLY (from airfighters to subs via tank or C4ISR) and can shift power balance in any area.WE ARE THE SECOND WESTERN INDEPENDANT SUPPLIER AFTER US FOR CAPACITIES. We are the only Euro nation to have the full INDEPENDANT world reco network which is second to USA. RECO satellites, Telecom satellites (bandwith second to US), ELINT satellites, DSP satellites (in 2008), METEO satellites, spy ships, 30 ELINT ground station in word with 2 dedicated to spy US satelites, SPACE SURVEILLANCE RADAR. An unkown assets is that we are the only nation with US which can produce any currencies in world (to make false money in perfect imitation - we are the best in Europe for money technology) Sensitivity to energy imports: Our oil company is fourth in world and we have ROBUST assets in non middle east areas like Gabon, Angola etc...We produce our oil industry heavy equipment and our industry is world second of US in this field. Our nuclear energy production is world second in world and give us independance on electricity.Our influence in Africa secure minerals imports. Sensitivity to embargo: France has world class semiconductors facilities and hold the more advanced Europe wafer fab (joint venture between Motorola, SGS Thomson and Philips). Our auto maker build 7,5 million car /year, we have Airbus main designed office in France and so on...Our industry is pretty well balanced and produce almost everything at world class. Then we are the only Euro nation with a launch pad and Euro leader in Space.So we do not depend on US or other nation. We produce the second set of weapons after US and we do not depend of any supplier. Military technology: we are mastering everything form nukes to C4ISR with a technological level recognised by US as world second (while UK is close after).Of course neither Japan, Germany or China enjoy such an advantage. Nukes: our nuclear force are world THIRD and we produce precise counterforce weapons INDEPENDANTLY.Good second strike ability.400 warheads vs 200 for UK.(and we have stored weapons we can reactivate).3 SSBN can strike anywhere in the world. Military skills: our war academy is renown with US and UK.Israelis send some generals to perfectionate. Should I remember that Saudia Arabia asked French to crush rebellion in Mecka and not to US or UK?Saudis special forces and military stalled two weeks before asking France help.We did it in two days with 70 commandos leading Saudi commando (and using combat nerve gaz killing 2000 rebels). Mitary capacities. Second world force projection from 2007 to 2012 as a single Cdg with 3E2C and 40 Rafales, protected by 19 frigates with top ASW, 6 SSN and 3 Horizon with ASTER 30 outperform anything UK have: Indeed UK has 2 ACTIVE small carriers (with limited self protection and 60 harriers), they will not have any BVR fighters with FA2 retirement, and not antiship capacity since Harrier GR7/9 have NO RADAR!! UK air force has an handfull of non operational EF supported by 63 old Tornado ADV.No medium range airdefense for their troops. They have more SSN (soon reduced to 8 only) and military transport but we rely on civilian military prepared transports from french companies and our overseas bases to accumulate locally . ONLY US, UK, Russia and Japan has a sub force strong enough to put in danger our fleet. In fact we can crush any OPFOR airforce of 100 SU27/Mig29 (plus old MIGS or SU) without AWAC, ONLY relying on Cdg (even I agree a second would be better and needed). Most of nation do not have ENOUGH YAKHONT equivalent missiles to crush our naval force until our second carrier is operational. UK is unable to do that and in 2010 only 4 T45 will have entered service
 
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gixxxerking    RE:How rank France in world power?   5/2/2005 5:25:21 PM
All those Islands would be under F-16/Patriot/AWACs blanket which is quite warm against all but the coldest enemy. And in this case the coldest is not an enemy of Egypt.
 
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gixxxerking    French Sortie Rate over Egypt   5/2/2005 5:57:22 PM
"We have only 1000 miles to travel.A C135 plus the 26 Transall C160 and buddy refueling, plus CdG, could easily allow a 800 sorties per day.Moreover we can add some tankers (A340/A330) using refueling pods if preparation is more than 3 months. (Tankers :90% avaibility, 3 tankers sorties, 3.3 tons delivered for each plane).But we could go to 4 maybe so one thousand sorties per days the 3 first days. .9*3*14*10 = 378 for C135 + .9*3*22*5= 297 for 22 C160 NG + 100 to 120 for Cdg Moreover we will have maybe 2 more tanker in 2009 (add 54). Apache antipiste (antirunway ) are launched with Scalp by M2000D (M2000C/5 in protection) while Rafale cope with E2C." --FS This will be a very cursory analysis of the Sorties available to France for combat operations in Egypt. So all data derived represent approximate numbers only. Sorties for CdG: With 40 Aircraft on board lets say this is roughly 2 sorties a day for combat aircraft with the possiblity of 3 sorties for some aircraft for very brief duration. This is about 100 sorties per day MAX. Chad, Djibouti and Corsica: All are between 1000 to 1400 miles of potential targets. This means that Each and every tactical aircraft sortied will HAVE TO have 2 air to air refuelings to reach their targets and return. Each sortie will take about 4 hours. A third sortie over these distances will fatigue the pilot and machine too much IMO. Possible in rare exceptions but not the norm. So with 15 KC-135 assuming ALL are available how many French aircraft does Egypt need to be ready for? Well for one the KC-135 will have to be rotated to support 24 hour operations. So only 50% of them are likey to be available at any one time. thats 7*150000 lbs of transfer fuel. Since you are coming from 3 locations you will need to split the force up. To make the math easy thats 5 KC-135 for all three primary locations. So 2 to 3 will be in the air at any given time on the ingress/egress route. Thats 300000 to 450000 lbs of fuel. Thats roughly 20 to 40 fighter size planes for each axis of attack. And thats only the ingress route. SO cut that number to 10 to 20 attacking fighters per axis of attack. Now considering the Quality of Egyptian C3I, AWACS and US built GCI. You cannot hope that 10 o 20 fighters per wave could overcome 200+ F-16/F-4/Migs and Patriot and Russian SAMs. You could also subdivide those aircraft into what their missions would be. Escort, long range CAP, Bombing, CAS, SEAD ect. FS your planes would be overwhelmed and destroyed.
 
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gixxxerking    RE:French Sortie Rate over Egypt   5/2/2005 6:22:56 PM
"We have only 1000 miles to travel.A C135 plus the 26 Transall C160 and buddy refueling, plus CdG, could easily allow a 800 sorties per day.Moreover we can add some tankers (A340/A330) using refueling pods if preparation is more than 3 months. (Tankers :90% avaibility, 3 tankers sorties, 3.3 tons delivered for each plane).But we could go to 4 maybe so one thousand sorties per days the 3 first days. .9*3*14*10 = 378 for C135 + .9*3*22*5= 297 for 22 C160 NG + 100 to 120 for Cdg Moreover we will have maybe 2 more tanker in 2009 (add 54). Apache antipiste (antirunway ) are launched with Scalp by M2000D (M2000C/5 in protection) while Rafale cope with E2C." --FS This will be a very cursory analysis of the Sorties available to France for combat operations in Egypt. So all data derived represent approximate numbers only. Sorties for CdG: With 40 Aircraft on board lets say this is roughly 2 sorties a day for combat aircraft with the possiblity of 3 sorties for some aircraft for very brief duration. This is about 100 sorties per day MAX. Chad, Djibouti and Corsica: All are between 1000 to 1400 miles of potential targets. This means that Each and every tactical aircraft sortied will HAVE TO have 2 air to air refuelings to reach their targets and return. Each sortie will take about 4 hours. A third sortie over these distances will fatigue the pilot and machine too much IMO. Possible in rare exceptions but not the norm. So with 15 KC-135 assuming ALL are available how many French aircraft does Egypt need to be ready for? Well for one the KC-135 will have to be rotated to support 24 hour operations. So only 50% of them are likey to be available at any one time. thats 7*150000 lbs of transfer fuel. Since you are coming from 3 locations you will need to split the force up. To make the math easy thats 5 KC-135 for all three primary locations. So 2 to 3 will be in the air at any given time on the ingress/egress route. Thats 300000 to 450000 lbs of fuel. Thats roughly 20 to 40 fighter size planes for each axis of attack. And thats only the ingress route. SO cut that number to 10 to 20 attacking fighters per axis of attack. Now considering the Quality of Egyptian C3I, AWACS and US built GCI. You cannot hope that 10 o 20 fighters per wave could overcome 200+ F-16/F-4/Migs and Patriot and Russian SAMs. You could also subdivide those aircraft into what their missions would be. Escort, long range CAP, Bombing, CAS, SEAD ect. FS your planes would be overwhelmed. So FS what all this means is that you have the ability to sortie approximately 400 a day absolute max! And a significant percentage of these will have to be SEAD or a2a mission. Egypt OTH can easily sortie over 1000 over its own soil and in waves much larger than 10 to 20. You are looking at 5 to 1 odds in favor of the defender! And thats without SAMs.
 
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french stratege    RE:French Sortie Rate over Egypt   5/2/2005 6:24:41 PM
you forgot C160 with 18 tons of kerosen at 1000 miles. In ho lo hi you don't need necessarly to refueling.And initial service rate will be above 50% and close to 90%.A KC135 is about 80 tons of fuel.Maybe 50 tons at 600 miles.So 600 tons for 12 KC135.With 6 tons per aircraft it is one hundred aircraft or 200 with 3 tons.Adding 20 C160 is 360 tons of fuel roughly 7 KC135. So an equivalent of maybe 13+7=20 KC135 equivalent so 1000 tons of fuel and 160/150 planes plus 20 from Cdg.Initial wave is 180 planes at least.60 Rafale , 40 M2000-5, 80 M2000D.We have two crew per tanker, and 1.5 per plane plus other plane waitings. In the 30 first hours we can probably do a 1000 missions firing 500 cruise missiles (antirunway and scalp).Egypt E2C has cease to exist.Egyptian high command disorganised.half of F16 are unable to take off.we dominate the sky.Other plane start to support.Chad motorized and cavalery columns move to west south Egypt.It remembers us already the Pyramid battle and Murat charge!(I'm lyric) Frankly 1000 miles is not above normal range of plane in hi lo hi with a weak load.So with 5 or 6 tons air refueling plus Scalp range....
 
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bazos    RE:How rank France in world power?   5/2/2005 6:29:18 PM
sTOP DONT GIVE FALSE INFORMATIONS! airbus IS AN EUROBUILDING .tHE ENGINE WHICH IS THE MOST IMPORYANT COMPOENENT IS FROM ETHER OR BRITISH. the ELECTRONIC? SOFTAWARE HARWARE ARE FROM US.
 
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bazos    RE:What has been decisively shown   5/2/2005 6:37:09 PM
GERMANY WILL STAY THE FEAR OF FRANCE THAT IS WHY FRANCE IS VERY IMPLY IN THE BUILDING OF UNION BECAUSE OF FEARING ANOTHER WAR WITH GERMAN AND THE FACT THAT AMERICAN MAYBE WOULD NOT INTERVENE TO SAVE FRANCE
 
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bazos    RE:Bluewings   5/2/2005 6:55:44 PM
NO ARRONGANCE BUT IGNORANCE. HE IS ALWAYS LACKING ARGUMENTS SO HE BECOMES ANGRY AND VERY OFTEN BEGIN TO INSULT.HE FORGET THAT HE LIVES IN AMERICAN CULTURE.TRUE HE IS ARRONGANT FOR NOTHING.
 
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Bluewings    RE:France / Egypt   5/2/2005 6:56:19 PM
To FS and Gixxx , FS , your plan is VERY daring ! Knowing our projection Force capability , splitting it into 2 fronts is ...very bold to say the least . But it could well work ... Did you take a close look at the landscape around Ras Banas and along the Red Sea coasts ? If you did , you should have noticed that it is not "really" Tank country , which can be good , or bad ... Moving so much Armor there could be tricky and take time , which in one way would allow us to defend and support effectively , but on the other hand would as well give Egypt time to improvise something . Risky business but if it works , the road to central Egypt would be wide open . What is worrying me is to move so much so far away from home . It is a long way around Africa ... We have the capability to do so but it is still a daring move . I would like to win that War WITHOUT involving any third party Country like Eritree or Sudan as it would only complicate things , both on military and political ground . Let 's keep it simple . ************************************************** Gixxx , your numbers are a bit off . Egypt do NOT have that many Aircrafts . Check the Egyptian AF OOB and you 'll see what I mean . Some are simply not flying AT ALL (ie: lack of Pilots , parts , etc ...). Same with the Tanks . Do not forget that when an Abrams dies , its crew is out of the War . Unless they use Cairo 's taxi drivers to man their Tanks ~lol ;-)~ I cannot see them sustaining heavy casualties for long ... That was an humor note ;-) ******************************************** I stand with what I said earlier on : The Med Sea is the KEY . Let's start with some ~almost~ facts , and let 's use them : 1) The Egyptian Navy is no match for the French Navy . 2) The Egyptian Subs ARE the main threat . 3) Egyptian AF over the Med is simply suicidal as the FAF can actually operate over our Fleet . 4) Logistics from South of France ~including Corsica~ would be an easy task , almost child play . Here , I now throw a "wild card" : Israel . Could Israel "unofficialy" help by "providing" security on our East flank by means of Fighters CAPs in the Med Sea , as a close War would probably attract Israel 's attention ? Egyptians would NOT want to get into trouble with the Israeli AF , don 't they ? But never mind Israel ... To win this , fire superiority is the key , and we have it if we only use the Med Sea . Djibouti would only be used as an FAF base to launch Air Strikes to their rear . We can do that . As I said before , the hard bit is to secure 1 or 2 harbors and possibly 1 Airfield on Egypt Med coast . That archived , and Egypt is almost ready to fall . If Alexandria fall , we got a golden ground to mount Ground Ops . Posters on StrategyPage can tell me whatever they like , if we land successfully in Egypt , "les carrotes sont cuites" for them . France Paras/SpecOps assault Troops are one of the best ~if not the best~ in the World . I know as it was my trade . If you re-read my "plan" on how to use them to disrupt , disturb and weaken Egypt coast line , I made a valid point . All we need is one or two "wrecked" harbors to start unloading stuff big time . If Egypt wants to send 500 Abrams to defend their coast , good to them . We 'll take them out with our AF/Combat Helos . Do you really think that the Egyptian AF can fight head-on FAF and Navy planes ? As I said in the US/EU thread , we can send waves of 50 to 100 Aircrafts at once , and at least 3 times/day from home soil . Timing is the key . We do one major push "there" ? So we send 100 Aircrafts "there" from France with a 2 hrs window while the CDG carry on his local task . No problem . Repeat the process as many times as needed and the Egyptian Med coast line will look like wearing a French Flag very soon . Cheers .
 
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gixxxerking    RE:How rank France in world power?   5/2/2005 6:57:07 PM
3:1 "you forgot C160 with 18 tons of kerosen at 1000 miles. In ho lo hi you don't need necessarly to refueling.And initial service rate will be above 50% and close to 90%.A KC135 is about 80 tons of fuel.Maybe 50 tons at 600 miles.So 600 tons for 12 KC135.With 6 tons per aircraft it is one hundred aircraft or 200 with 3 tons.Adding 20 C160 is 360 tons of fuel roughly 7 KC135. So an equivalent of maybe 13+7=20 KC135 equivalent so 1000 tons of fuel and 160/150 planes plus 20 from Cdg.Initial wave is 180 planes at least.60 Rafale , 40 M2000-5, 80 M2000D.We have two crew per tanker, and 1.5 per plane plus other plane waitings. In the 30 first hours we can probably do a 1000 missions firing 500 cruise missiles (antirunway and scalp).Egypt E2C has cease to exist.Egyptian high command disorganised.half of F16 are unable to take off.we dominate the sky.Other plane start to support.Chad motorized and cavalery columns move to west south Egypt.It remembers us already the Pyramid battle and Murat charge!(I'm lyric) Frankly 1000 miles is not above normal range of plane in hi lo hi with a weak load.So with 5 or 6 tons air refueling plus Scalp range...." --FS Even with those C-160. It will not be enough. They use the fuel they off load. So you gain little from them. In fact fully loaded they have very short legs. They might help you add 5 more aircraft to each wave. The E-2c will not just cease to exist. They will detect you from stand off and vector fighters and SAMs. You would have no surprise. Patriot battery could deal with your cruise missiles and anti-runway operations have been proven to be of only moderate to low effectiveness against a prepared airforce. Even if only half of the EAF takes of they out number you by a wide margin and have SAMs. Additionally the Egyptians have GCI of US design so they will not be blind if the lost the E-2c. Egyptians dominate their airspace. Patriot has at least greater than .7 PK on fighters. How is it you dont see you are checked in the air over Egypt? Dont you see that if just one KC-135 goes down due to maint failure you will lose thousands of troops on the ground.
 
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Bluewings    RE:Bluewings   5/2/2005 7:08:43 PM
Bazos , you got it wrong . I am indeed sometimes arrogant , my bad :-( , but I try to work on ignorance as much as I can . If you have nothing sweet or more intelligent to say on that thread , keep your mouth shut . Or participate in a Gentleman manner , thank you ;-) If you don 't , off . Cheers .
 
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