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Subject: How rank France in world power?
french stratege    4/23/2005 9:33:41 PM
o be a world power means to master a number of power tools and capacities: Economic power: France have fourth largest economy in world, even UK GNP seems on a par.But in fact France has a slightly bigger GDP in Puchasing Power Parity, a stronguer industry as its share in GNP is bigger, and especially in military usable industry (automotive, steel, microelectronic ...). Its trade balnce is positive unless US and UK.We benefit of Euro in sense that in a crisis, Euro would not go down like pound.Our financial market is less sensitive to crisis than UK. Then our saving, gold and currencies reserves are higher. France has 43 companies in the WORLD FORTUNE 500 ranking, one more than Germany and much more than UK or Italy.For example UK industry is stronguer than France in prescription drug but you can not use that for war. War potential: US: 100; Japan: 55, Germany ,40, France 25, UK 20. Diplomatic influence: should I said that French diplomatic network is world class and second to US only (with better skills).That our foreign aid is higher than UK or US in GNP %? That we have VETO right in UNO? That our cultural influence is world second after US? Thank to our industry we can substitute to US or Russia to deliver to a friend the whole set of weapons INDEPENDANTLY (from airfighters to subs via tank or C4ISR) and can shift power balance in any area.WE ARE THE SECOND WESTERN INDEPENDANT SUPPLIER AFTER US FOR CAPACITIES. We are the only Euro nation to have the full INDEPENDANT world reco network which is second to USA. RECO satellites, Telecom satellites (bandwith second to US), ELINT satellites, DSP satellites (in 2008), METEO satellites, spy ships, 30 ELINT ground station in word with 2 dedicated to spy US satelites, SPACE SURVEILLANCE RADAR. An unkown assets is that we are the only nation with US which can produce any currencies in world (to make false money in perfect imitation - we are the best in Europe for money technology) Sensitivity to energy imports: Our oil company is fourth in world and we have ROBUST assets in non middle east areas like Gabon, Angola etc...We produce our oil industry heavy equipment and our industry is world second of US in this field. Our nuclear energy production is world second in world and give us independance on electricity.Our influence in Africa secure minerals imports. Sensitivity to embargo: France has world class semiconductors facilities and hold the more advanced Europe wafer fab (joint venture between Motorola, SGS Thomson and Philips). Our auto maker build 7,5 million car /year, we have Airbus main designed office in France and so on...Our industry is pretty well balanced and produce almost everything at world class. Then we are the only Euro nation with a launch pad and Euro leader in Space.So we do not depend on US or other nation. We produce the second set of weapons after US and we do not depend of any supplier. Military technology: we are mastering everything form nukes to C4ISR with a technological level recognised by US as world second (while UK is close after).Of course neither Japan, Germany or China enjoy such an advantage. Nukes: our nuclear force are world THIRD and we produce precise counterforce weapons INDEPENDANTLY.Good second strike ability.400 warheads vs 200 for UK.(and we have stored weapons we can reactivate).3 SSBN can strike anywhere in the world. Military skills: our war academy is renown with US and UK.Israelis send some generals to perfectionate. Should I remember that Saudia Arabia asked French to crush rebellion in Mecka and not to US or UK?Saudis special forces and military stalled two weeks before asking France help.We did it in two days with 70 commandos leading Saudi commando (and using combat nerve gaz killing 2000 rebels). Mitary capacities. Second world force projection from 2007 to 2012 as a single Cdg with 3E2C and 40 Rafales, protected by 19 frigates with top ASW, 6 SSN and 3 Horizon with ASTER 30 outperform anything UK have: Indeed UK has 2 ACTIVE small carriers (with limited self protection and 60 harriers), they will not have any BVR fighters with FA2 retirement, and not antiship capacity since Harrier GR7/9 have NO RADAR!! UK air force has an handfull of non operational EF supported by 63 old Tornado ADV.No medium range airdefense for their troops. They have more SSN (soon reduced to 8 only) and military transport but we rely on civilian military prepared transports from french companies and our overseas bases to accumulate locally . ONLY US, UK, Russia and Japan has a sub force strong enough to put in danger our fleet. In fact we can crush any OPFOR airforce of 100 SU27/Mig29 (plus old MIGS or SU) without AWAC, ONLY relying on Cdg (even I agree a second would be better and needed). Most of nation do not have ENOUGH YAKHONT equivalent missiles to crush our naval force until our second carrier is operational. UK is unable to do that and in 2010 only 4 T45 will have entered service
 
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gixxxerking    RE:How rank France in world power?   4/28/2005 4:09:29 PM
Forgot to mention this to you FS: link CdG and the Ro/Ro might want to stay far back! Will you abandon your invasion effort now that you know these facts?
 
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tiff    RE:FS -rub your face in the facts   4/28/2005 4:18:13 PM
FS I don't think I'll ever get bored rubbing your face in the facts. "Economic power: France have fourth largest economy in world, even UK GNP seems on a par.But in fact France has a slightly bigger GDP in Puchasing Power Parity, a stronguer industry as its share in GNP is bigger, and especially in military usable industry (automotive, steel, microelectronic ...)." UK GDP 2145.5 Billion USD France GDP 2010.4 Billion USD Lets not even consider GDP per capita, you might be embarrassed. The UK has the fourth largest economy in the world. OECD and ONS. France has double the unemployment rate of UK (9.4 and 5.0) "We benefit of Euro in sense that in a crisis, Euro would not go down like pound.Our financial market is less sensitive to crisis than UK." rubbish, what proof? "France has 43 companies in the WORLD FORTUNE 500 ranking, one more than Germany and much more than UK or Italy." Of the top 2000 world companies 140 are from uk and 62 from france.(Forbes)Ther are 3 UK companies in the top 10. The top french company is number 16 "For example UK industry is stronguer than France in prescription drug but you can not use that for war." A very strange comment to make especially when the UK can produce enough chemicals, viruses and germs to turn france and the french into a sort of grey slime. FS what is the french for f*ckwit?
 
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Worcester    RE:FS -rub your face in the facts:TIFF no credit for France   4/28/2005 5:05:34 PM
Good post. BTW on financial strength, Britain has an independent borrowing capacity, while France would have to ask permission of the Germans, etc. France is WEAKER because the government borrowing capacity is legally limited by the European Central Bank in Frankfurt - think of it as sharing the same credit card! The limit was 3% of GDP which the French broke in 2003 (surprise!) and have been threatened with legal action by the EU Commission; it has now been compromised over by a new "flexible" agreement with special "get out" clauses. Germany, Italy, Spain etc etc will not allow their credit lines to be used by France nor pay higher interest rates for a French war. So much for French "independence". As for his knowledge of markets...just rubbish. I am always amused by FS ignorance of economics - its even worse than his knowledge of tactics! Ah but I do love the "equipment lists" in lieu of strategy!
 
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Godofgamblers    worcester: economics   4/28/2005 8:55:44 PM
worcester, in all fairness, your comments about economics and FS are not fair; as you know, economics has become an exercise in rhetoric: economies are so complex and mismatched that it is a very difficult, if not futile, exercise to compare them quantitatively since any match is arbitrary in the parameters it sets. therefore, it is not fair to say that FS's opinions are "rubbish". the truth is that the UK and French economies are so closely matched that along certain lines one might outstrip the other while along different lines it may be vice versa. as to which economy stronger, EITHER argument can be convincingly put forward. if i establish that the key criteria are (1) self-sufficiency (energy and foodstuffs), (2) balance of payments (3) currency stability etc, i could argue that france has the lead on the UK. if the criteria were (1) access to capital, (2) capital reserves (3)energy supplies (4) influence on financial markets, etc etc UK would be ahead. in any case, whichever side you take, valid arguments can be made. "ignorance" is not the issue here.
 
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ret13f    RE:FS   4/28/2005 10:49:26 PM
I am curious. what is your background? military, government, economics?
 
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Bluewings    RE:FS   4/29/2005 12:55:58 AM
I kind of hate those threads X vs Y but I believe France can win against Egypt in a conventional War . As an Ex SpecOps , I cannot really make up a plan as it requires more than my knowledge , but it is feasible . The key ~in my view~ is to secure the Seas , Med and Red , as the main threat to the French Forces would come from underwater . I would probably focus a lot more on the Med Sea rather than on the Red Sea , because it is closer and its our play-ground ~ we know Her well . A wise move in my sens would be to send our Submarine fleet to hunt down any Egyptian Sub in the Med while setting up strong checkpoints at Gibraltar , then informed everybody that the French Fleet will open fire at any Ship wanting to reach Egypt . During that War , France will police the Med Sea . Usual trades will be allowed to go through and out . Secondly , we try to make sure that the Egyptian Navy Sea-space is restricted to a minimum by means of mines , heavy Hunter Killer Sub patrols , ASW and firepower at Sea . During all this time , usual build-up at Djibouti as well as insertion of SpecOps ~here I come ;-)~ . Commando Hubert Divers will be tasked to breach underwater Harbor defenses and mine/sink a Ship or two before to try to wreck havoc on harbor Coms facilities . Air Force Specials ~CPA10~ will do their usual , recon , costal C4 and Air Defenses , trying to disturb as much as they can . RIMA and RPIMA will be inserted too and gather intels for SEAD Strikes . Local Air Superiority over the Fleet will be maintained during all the conflict , allowing for pre-planned heavy Air strikes composed of Rafales and M2000Bs under AWACS coverage . A Fleet of Tankers will be split in between Djibouti and Corsica , allowing for in-flight refueling , seconded by Super Etendars . (See French Stratege 's list for material/Ships employed , and numbers) We hope that after 2 to 3 weeks of conflict ~probably less in fact~ , Egyptian assets in the Med Sea are or destroyed or kept at bay in bad shape . France might have lost 1 or 2 Subs , a couple of Fregates and a handfull of Aircrafts . From that moment , France put all her strenght to gain local ~500km2 box~ and temporary ~2 Hrs~ Air superiority and pound Egyptian Med costal lines and up to 50km deep in , under HEAVY jamming environment . During those 2 hrs , French Marines will land on beaches while Legion 2nd REP will be dropped 20 clicks in-land . We repeat the process as many times as needed in different locations and as fast as it can possibly be done . (We can probably expect heavy losses on both sides if Egypt decides to hold the Med costline at all cost ~sorry for the "cost" thing .) Now you tell me whatever you want , but I am telling you that the Marines and the Legion WILL hold 36 Hrs with Air support . And it 's all I need . Then , it is the "Invasion" by beach landing of French Armored Divisions , Arty Btls and non-stop Paras drops . Pounded from Sea and Air , heavily engaged on the ground , Egypt will loose the Med Sea costline . Then , the Logistic "battle" comes into play ... You can see that in my scenario , the Med Sea is the key . I might be well "off" by believing that a "D-Day" tactic is valid , but the Med Sea is small , not far away from home ~it IS home after all~ and France has the needed shipping power to do so especialy so close from home land . To any Egyptian poster , this is only a "wargame" , a "scenario" and I have nothing personaly against Egypt . It is all in fun ;-) Cheers .
 
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ret13f    RE:wings   4/29/2005 1:01:50 AM
FS desperately needs your help. your idea makes much more sense than his. I think he forgets that Egypt owns/controls the canal.
 
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dudley    RE:How rank France in world power?   4/29/2005 1:02:40 AM
Yes but France is fast becoming an africanized arab country and its citizens are scared to offend them.
 
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dudley    RE:How rank France in world power?   4/29/2005 1:06:14 AM
I dont mean for this to be a racist or antireligious comment but reality must be faced. Any african led country has how much success? Arabs have what success at ruling modern economy? France with her whore mentality is fast becoming what she wants!
 
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Bluewings    RE:How rank France in world power?   4/29/2005 1:12:04 AM
dudley , you are a bad man . No Country on earth is a "whore" , nor France , nor China , neither Luxembourg . There is only good and bad people and they are equally mixed on the Earth surface . Cheers .
 
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