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Subject: How rank France in world power?
french stratege    4/23/2005 9:33:41 PM
o be a world power means to master a number of power tools and capacities: Economic power: France have fourth largest economy in world, even UK GNP seems on a par.But in fact France has a slightly bigger GDP in Puchasing Power Parity, a stronguer industry as its share in GNP is bigger, and especially in military usable industry (automotive, steel, microelectronic ...). Its trade balnce is positive unless US and UK.We benefit of Euro in sense that in a crisis, Euro would not go down like pound.Our financial market is less sensitive to crisis than UK. Then our saving, gold and currencies reserves are higher. France has 43 companies in the WORLD FORTUNE 500 ranking, one more than Germany and much more than UK or Italy.For example UK industry is stronguer than France in prescription drug but you can not use that for war. War potential: US: 100; Japan: 55, Germany ,40, France 25, UK 20. Diplomatic influence: should I said that French diplomatic network is world class and second to US only (with better skills).That our foreign aid is higher than UK or US in GNP %? That we have VETO right in UNO? That our cultural influence is world second after US? Thank to our industry we can substitute to US or Russia to deliver to a friend the whole set of weapons INDEPENDANTLY (from airfighters to subs via tank or C4ISR) and can shift power balance in any area.WE ARE THE SECOND WESTERN INDEPENDANT SUPPLIER AFTER US FOR CAPACITIES. We are the only Euro nation to have the full INDEPENDANT world reco network which is second to USA. RECO satellites, Telecom satellites (bandwith second to US), ELINT satellites, DSP satellites (in 2008), METEO satellites, spy ships, 30 ELINT ground station in word with 2 dedicated to spy US satelites, SPACE SURVEILLANCE RADAR. An unkown assets is that we are the only nation with US which can produce any currencies in world (to make false money in perfect imitation - we are the best in Europe for money technology) Sensitivity to energy imports: Our oil company is fourth in world and we have ROBUST assets in non middle east areas like Gabon, Angola etc...We produce our oil industry heavy equipment and our industry is world second of US in this field. Our nuclear energy production is world second in world and give us independance on electricity.Our influence in Africa secure minerals imports. Sensitivity to embargo: France has world class semiconductors facilities and hold the more advanced Europe wafer fab (joint venture between Motorola, SGS Thomson and Philips). Our auto maker build 7,5 million car /year, we have Airbus main designed office in France and so on...Our industry is pretty well balanced and produce almost everything at world class. Then we are the only Euro nation with a launch pad and Euro leader in Space.So we do not depend on US or other nation. We produce the second set of weapons after US and we do not depend of any supplier. Military technology: we are mastering everything form nukes to C4ISR with a technological level recognised by US as world second (while UK is close after).Of course neither Japan, Germany or China enjoy such an advantage. Nukes: our nuclear force are world THIRD and we produce precise counterforce weapons INDEPENDANTLY.Good second strike ability.400 warheads vs 200 for UK.(and we have stored weapons we can reactivate).3 SSBN can strike anywhere in the world. Military skills: our war academy is renown with US and UK.Israelis send some generals to perfectionate. Should I remember that Saudia Arabia asked French to crush rebellion in Mecka and not to US or UK?Saudis special forces and military stalled two weeks before asking France help.We did it in two days with 70 commandos leading Saudi commando (and using combat nerve gaz killing 2000 rebels). Mitary capacities. Second world force projection from 2007 to 2012 as a single Cdg with 3E2C and 40 Rafales, protected by 19 frigates with top ASW, 6 SSN and 3 Horizon with ASTER 30 outperform anything UK have: Indeed UK has 2 ACTIVE small carriers (with limited self protection and 60 harriers), they will not have any BVR fighters with FA2 retirement, and not antiship capacity since Harrier GR7/9 have NO RADAR!! UK air force has an handfull of non operational EF supported by 63 old Tornado ADV.No medium range airdefense for their troops. They have more SSN (soon reduced to 8 only) and military transport but we rely on civilian military prepared transports from french companies and our overseas bases to accumulate locally . ONLY US, UK, Russia and Japan has a sub force strong enough to put in danger our fleet. In fact we can crush any OPFOR airforce of 100 SU27/Mig29 (plus old MIGS or SU) without AWAC, ONLY relying on Cdg (even I agree a second would be better and needed). Most of nation do not have ENOUGH YAKHONT equivalent missiles to crush our naval force until our second carrier is operational. UK is unable to do that and in 2010 only 4 T45 will have entered service
 
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french stratege    Logistic: learn Gxxx!   5/6/2005 3:26:49 PM
Gxxx: You should read http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/www/Wwindx.htm of the first Gulf War (pretty god document) In Chapter 8 you will find: http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/www/www8.htm "Franks' command numbered more than 142,000 soldiers, compared with Luck's 116,000. To keep his troops moving and fighting, Franks used more than 48,500 vehicles and aircraft, including 1,587 tanks, 1,502 Bradleys and armored personnel carriers, 669 artillery pieces, and 223 attack helicopters. For every day of offensive operations, the corps needed 5.6 million gallons of fuel, 3.3 million gallons of water, and 6,075 tons of ammunition." So about 33 600 tons of fuel+water and 6000 tons of ammunition for a whole heavily mecanized army: 21168 tons of fuel and 12474 tons of water (!!!!) plus 6075 tons of ammunitions.Equivalent of 6 heavily armored divisions! So a whole total of 39700 tons so 661 ton per armored division per day. In fact a soldier need 2 gallon of water per day at minimum in desert.So about 284 000 per day. In fact supplementary water was used because US soldier use too much water (they take showers!!! but also for NBC).They like their comfort! So with reduction of water to minimum (to drink only and minimal cleaning) so a third or quarter value, a French armored division would use less than 500 tons at maximum.Moreover consumption of fuel is related to equipment weight and our armor is lighter vs M1/M2.These values are similar to WW2 US (higher in fact) but a German panzer division used half of US (350 tons/day). In fact Franck corps was similar in size to what France would use for whole campaign, but stronguer in heavy tanks.In fact four time superior in heavy tanks which are 20% heavier than Leclerc. It is reasonable to think that our Chad motorized corps would use 600 to 800 tons per day because of helos). Our whole army would use about 2500 tons per day. Only by air (14 transall and 62 C160 so 1272 tons per day and roughly 1000 tons at 80% availability at a single lift but we can do until 3/day), we could supply the whole army! But we would use most trucks to spare planes unless emergency. So 100 000 tons of supply would be enough for 40 days of operations for ground army from Chad base, cargo on landing beach and air lift from Dijibouti, chad and France.Air force operation use 3 time more (becuase of fuel!) but it was brought in building phase in Djibouti, Corsica and Chad. Caesar, AMX10 RC or VAB weight less than M109, M2/M3. Logistic is not an issue, considering what we have and use.
 
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french stratege    RE:Logistic: learn Gxxx!read this one sorry typo error   5/6/2005 3:57:39 PM
Gxxx: You should read http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/www/Wwindx.htm of the first Gulf War (pretty god document) In Chapter 8 you will find: http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/www/www8.htm "Franks' command numbered more than 142,000 soldiers, compared with Luck's 116,000. To keep his troops moving and fighting, Franks used more than 48,500 vehicles and aircraft, including 1,587 tanks, 1,502 Bradleys and armored personnel carriers, 669 artillery pieces, and 223 attack helicopters. For every day of offensive operations, the corps needed 5.6 million gallons of fuel, 3.3 million gallons of water, and 6,075 tons of ammunition." So about 33 600 tons of fuel+water and 6000 tons of ammunition for a whole heavily mecanized army: 21168 tons of fuel and 12474 tons of water (!!!!) plus 6075 tons of ammunitions.Equivalent of 6 heavily armored divisions! So a whole total of 39700 tons so 6610 ton per armored division per day. In fact a soldier need 2 gallon of water per day at minimum in desert.So about 284 000 per day. In fact supplementary water was used because US soldier use too much water (they take showers!!! but also for NBC).They like their comfort! So with reduction of water to minimum (to drink only and minimal cleaning) so a third or quarter value, a French armored division would use less than 5000 tons at maximum.Moreover consumption of fuel is related to equipment weight and our armor is lighter vs M1/M2.These values are similar to WW2 US (higher in fact) but a German panzer division used half of US (350 tons/day). In fact Franck corps was similar in size to what France would use for whole campaign, but stronguer in heavy tanks.In fact four time superior in heavy tanks which are 20% heavier than Leclerc. It is reasonable to think that our Chad motorized corps would use 600 to 800 tons per day for ground forces (PLUS 1200 tons because of helos). Our whole army would use about 10500 tons per day. Only by air (14 transall and 62 C160 so 1272 tons per day and roughly 1000 tons at 80% availability at a single lift but we can do until 3/day), we could supply the whole MOTORIZED CORPS! But we would use most trucks to spare planes unless emergency. So 400 000 tons of supply would be enough for 40 days of operations for ground army from Chad base, cargo on landing beach and air lift from Dijibouti, chad and France.Air force operation use 3 time more (becuase of fuel!) but it was brought in building phase in Djibouti, Corsica and Chad. Caesar, AMX10 RC or VAB weight less than M109, M2/M3. Logistic is not an issue, considering what we have and use.
 
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gixxxerking    Reality Check   5/6/2005 4:36:37 PM
FS, please, you arent coming from Chad period. politically impossible. Lybia was brave enough to directly challenge the USN for much less. If you insist on this. I insist on you explaining how you protect your flank and supply trains from Sudanese and Lybians first. Same arguement goes for Djibouti to Egypt through Eritrea. If you insist I will ad these forces to the ORBAT and take shots at you with them first. You will also have to deal with the politcal fall out and other possible outside influences. You land force is comming from the Med Sea if you want to be realistic. Unless you plan to fight the previously mentioned nations. So what I need to settle this once and for all is for you to detail the following. The composition of your amphibious force to include what is being carried by what ship to where. A timeline. And what supporting fires and protection this landing will have. Keep in mind the EAF/EN will attack any major French Naval vessels that move near Crete. P.S. Remember to stay within the scope of the debate. This is Egypt vs France alone. Stop forming defacto coalitions and invading nuetral nations and thinking there are no consequenses. If you deploy to Chad, you are land locked. If you Deploy to Djibouti you are also land and Sea blocked. The USA is a strong ally of Egypt. So if you can use Chad because of your diplomatic relations, so to can Egypt use the US or Israel ect. Many nations have an interest at keeping France away form the Canal.
 
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french stratege    RE:Reality Check   5/6/2005 4:56:28 PM
On Chad we use our existing base like Djibouti. (I don't understand why we should be seablocked in Djibouti.Djibouti has an harbor!) Lybian have proven themselves they are unable to deploy massively in the south. I can accept a scenario were we don't use Chad and it would not change final output even it will take more time.But your self in EU/US scenario you crossed Syria which is more difficult tha empty south Lybian desert. But saying we use only Djibouti and Med sea. I have already proven that Egypt is unable to use its subs or damage our fleet with its weak ressources when crossing Sicia /Tunisia straight or straight of Sicilia.
 
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gixxxerking    RE:Reality Check   5/6/2005 5:56:46 PM
"On Chad we use our existing base like Djibouti. (I don't understand why we should be seablocked in Djibouti.Djibouti has an harbor!) Lybian have proven themselves they are unable to deploy massively in the south. I can accept a scenario were we don't use Chad and it would not change final output even it will take more time.But your self in EU/US scenario you crossed Syria which is more difficult tha empty south Lybian desert. But saying we use only Djibouti and Med sea. I have already proven that Egypt is unable to use its subs or damage our fleet with its weak ressources when crossing Sicia /Tunisia straight or straight of Sicilia." --FS By sea blocked I mean no Leclerc that I know of or ever seen is able to float! I didnt mean you cant use the Harbor. Also Lybians in the past may have had inept leadership or insufficient resources. Today is a different day. Also their Migs would have no trouble going south. I personally do not mind you coming from Chad as I think the Lybians will flank you for violating their territory. Just be ready for the response. But then you must deal with that before entering Egypt. Even if you win you draw down resources. Now when I said the US violate Syrian air space for a few hours MAX. I remind you that I was not conducting a land violation as you are. And I stated from day 1 that I was ready to fight through the Syrians who are horrible overmatched by the US. The difference is the US has the numbers and firepower to do this. Remember I had an entire Division, AEF, MAW and MEF after 1 year build up to breach Syria and then only from the air. France cannot deploy a force so powerful. Also you havent proven French Navy is safe from SSK. You merely gave another equipment list. A world war II SSK could hide from modern Sonar in the Med so how are you going to find Improved Romeo and very modern Moray in the same environment with 100% success? I am not saying you couldnt fight through but you would have to do just that. And in any fight there are casualties. The Strait is very narrow and mines/torpedo/missile could appear at anytime from any direction. But My Subs would not fire or deploy mines until hostility broke out. Their task would be reconaissance unless a good shot a the CdG was available. If so she would be torpedo to death. After hostilities broke out the task would be to interdict French SLOC. Only 1 or 2 SSK would do this and take only high percentage shots. So you have said you will attempt to stop this. But you have by no means proven it. And if the SSK, especially Moray stay silent long enough you will not be likely to find her until she engaged. It is for this reason during US vs EU thread I stay out of the Med. ASW results too unpredictable to risk HVT there IMO and political fall out of losing CVN too great. And I have 12 to give. You have 1! CdG not just CVN but symbolic target of national pride. You cannot afford even moderate damage to her much less losing her. 1 CVN is a true French vulnerability I intend to exploit if you sail west of Malta.
 
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Bluewings    RE:Reality Check   5/6/2005 5:56:53 PM
Gixxx , if you don 't mind , keep commanding Egyptian Forces and do not tell us what we can or cannot do ;-) We 'll prove in due time ~as we go along~ what France is doing , where from and what with . Thank you . Cheers .
 
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gixxxerking    RE:Reality Check   5/6/2005 6:47:20 PM
Ok well if you prefer to learn things the hard way, the toe of my boot, so be it! I was doing you a favor.
 
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Bluewings    RE:Reality Check/FN in the Med   5/6/2005 7:29:40 PM
Ok Gixxx , I read your post carefully and took notice of your desire to engage ~if possible~ the FN from the moment they cross the pass in between Tunisia and Sicily , up to West of Crete . In fact , principaly East of Malta . The proper way for our Subs to deny yours any firing/Intel gathering opportunity is simply to do what I said earlier : 1) Gibraltar will be closely watch by a couple of Subs and 2 ASW Frigate + Air ASW support in the form of : - Frigate ASW D612 De-Grasse + Lynks Helos - Frigate ASW D640 Georges Leygues + different patrol Boats . 2) Hunting Party in the Med : - 4 Rubis Class Subs : Améthyste, Casabianca, Emeraude and Rubis - 3 ASW Frigates : D641 Dupleix , D642 Montcalm , D643 Jean de Vienne - 5 ASW AVISO Class : F781 Estienne d'Orves , F782 Amyot d'Inville , F783 Drogou , F784 Detroyat , F785 Jean Moulin . 150nm behind that Hunting party : Charles de Gaules BattleGroup supported by : - 2 Anti-Air Frigates : 0602 Suffren and 0603 Duquesne - 2 ASW Frigates : F786 Quartier-Maitre Anquetil and F787 Commandant de Pimodan - 3 additionals ASW Frigates : D644 Primauguet , D645 La Motte-Picquet , D646 Latouche-Treville - 3 Multi-purpose Lafayette Stealth Frigates : F710 La Fayette , F711 Surcouf , F712 Courbet - 5 ASW AVISO Class : F786 Quartier-Maitre Anquetil , F787 Commandant de Pimodan , F788 Second-maitre Le Bihan , F789 Lieutenant de vaisseau Le Henaff , F790 Lieutenant de vaisseau Lavallee - 5 Mine-Hunter Ships : M641 Eridan , M642 Cassiopée , M643 Andromède , M644 Pégase , M645 Orion + usual Support Ships . The rest is under "fog of War" . You 'll discover later ;-) .... As you can see , we have on the surface no less than 18 Ships fully dedicated to anti Submarine Warfare . A third of them has dedicated ASW Helos on-board . And it 's not all : I am going to use 5 Atlantique II ASW Aircrafts ~We 've got 30 of them;-)~ supported by 1 KC-135 . Now , if ONE of your old Romeo can go through that kind of Anti-Submarine net , I eat my hat . ************************************************* The French Fleet is NOW where I want it to be : West of Crete . We go back to : http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/30-46163.asp Your say ... Cheers .
 
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TXAggie93    RE:Reality Check/french stratege   5/6/2005 7:53:29 PM
FS I think your off on your calculations for supplies of your Mech divisions. If you are coming from Chad your going to have to go 300-600 miles just to get to Egypt. I do not think that there are many improved roads in the NW part of Chad. Your supply lines would be so long from Chad to your forces in Egypt. Plus how do you plan on getting the supplies into Chad to send them to Egypt? The AMX 10 RC has range of 800km or 17 hrs opration on 520 gals how many AMX are we talking about? What other equipment and #s are we talking about also?
 
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gixxxerking    RE:Reality Check/FN in the Med   5/6/2005 8:44:24 PM
"2) Hunting Party in the Med : - 4 Rubis Class Subs : Améthyste, Casabianca, Emeraude and Rubis - 3 ASW Frigates : D641 Dupleix , D642 Montcalm , D643 Jean de Vienne - 5 ASW AVISO Class : F781 Estienne d'Orves , F782 Amyot d'Inville , F783 Drogou , F784 Detroyat , F785 Jean Moulin ." --Bluewings Going where?
 
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