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Subject: Economic Effectiveness of Soviet Labour Camp System
Roman    4/16/2005 1:23:41 PM
Ostensibly, one of the reasons the Soviet Union made such an extensive use of labour camps (instead of other forms of execution) was that they used convicted labour for various development projects. I am wondering, though, is this really economically effective to do? Consider: 1) You have to have guards to guard the camp and prisoners during work, while supplying both the guards and the prisoners in remote corners of the country. 2) Convicted labourers are unlikely to be particularly skilled at the job you assign them. 3) The convicted labourers cannot be trusted with much technology above the level of a spade and a shovel. Thus you are supporting a huge population working with primitive tools that requires close supervision from project planners to do the job right and needs extensive guarding not to escape. This does not seem terribly economical to me - though I suppose it worked for the Soviets because they had a shortage of advanced machinery anyway.
 
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dummnutzer    RE:Economic Effectiveness of Soviet Labour Camp System    4/16/2005 2:25:56 PM
You need workers in areas nobody is going to enter, e.g. Siberia? Convict them. You need skilled workers over there? Convict a skilled worker. Only a few guards are needed, nature does the rest in Siberia. Look at your PC. If You use an aluminium casing, it was likely hand-brushed in a Chinese prison camp. Who made the mouse and the keyboard? Forced labour makes economic sense on all but the highest tech level. It does in the PRC, it certainly did in Nazi Germany. It likely did in the SU, as they used it mostly for simple resource extraction and some road building etc. .
 
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Godofgamblers    RE:Economic Effectiveness of Soviet Labour Camp System    4/16/2005 6:50:25 PM
hey roman,good to see b you back. the gulags weren't meant to be economically viable... just to make people "disappear". solzhenitzen's Gulag Archipalego is a good place to start on the subject. reading it, one realizes that stalin's madness was paranoia... there was no economic sense behind it.
 
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Roman    RE:Economic Effectiveness of Soviet Labour Camp System    4/17/2005 12:24:08 PM
GoG, I never leaft - I just cut down on my posts due to exams... :) I am aware that economic viability was not the main purpose of Soviet Labour camps - that was to get rid of 'undesirable' elements in society. However, getting rid of these 'undesirables' could be and often was accomplished with a simple and cheap bullet - getting rid of them through the labour camp system aimed to extract some economic value out of them. As to building highways, etc. I would still imagine it would be more economical to do so with machinery than with swarms of workers whom you have to feed, clothe and guard - on the other hand Soviets did have a shortage of advanced machinery so for them it might have made economic sense.
 
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S.C.P    RE:Economic Effectiveness of Soviet Labour Camp System    4/17/2005 2:48:01 PM
Well it got rid of 95% of German Prisoners of War, Never to be seen again.
 
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Godofgamblers    czech wave of prisoners   4/17/2005 8:31:12 PM
i read that there was once a czech wave of prisoners, 20,000 strong, who escaped from the gulag and caused considerable chaos. not sure why they were though. solzhenitzen covers everything in excruciating detail. why not just put as bullet in their heads? i don't know. i doubt if they were crunching numbers though as to ROI, etc. Stalin didn't seem to operate on those principles...
 
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Roman    RE:czech wave of prisoners   4/17/2005 11:06:37 PM
During WWI the Czech lands and Slovakia were both part of Austria-Hungary. Austria-Hungary & Germany were fighting against Britain, France, Italy and Russia (well there were more countries on both sides of the conflict, but these were the main powers). Because Czechs and Slovaks mostly wanted to have nothing to do with their Austrian and Hungarian imperial masters many defected or simply left (and some emigrants returned) to fight against their oppressors on both the Western and Eastern Front. Consequently, Czechoslovak Legions were formed in France to fight against Germany on the Western Front, in Italy to fight Austria-Hungary on the Italian Front and in Russia to fight against Germany and Austria-Hungary on the Eastern Front (of course, Czechoslovak Legions is often shortened to simply 'Czech Legions' in Western literature...). Most of the personnel for the legions came from former prisoners of war - that is probably why you speak of prisoners breaking out. After the Bolsheviks seized power in 1917 and signed peace with Germany and Austria-Hungary an agreement was reached to evacuate the Czechoslovak Legion from Russia to France so that it could fight there. Evacuation, however, was extremely slow as it had to be done using a roundabout route through Siberia (because obviously it could not be done through Germany or Austria-Hungary). Simultaneously, prisoners of war from the Central Powers were also being repatriated in the other direction. At Chelyabinsk a train transporting some soldiers from the Czechoslovak Legion had a stopover. Simultaneously there was a stopover of a train repatriating some Hungarian prisoners of war. A small scuffle developed between the soldiers of the Czechoslovak Legion and some Hungarian/German prisoners of war and one of the Hungarian/German soldiers was shot in the incident. The Bolshevik authorities arrested the Czech and Slovak soldiers and imprisoned them. This was a big mistake The event enraged the rest of the Czech and Slovak soldiers on this particular train and they decided to liberate their comrades. They did so and seized the entire city of Chelyabinsk in the process. Having happened in Siberia this is known as the 'Siberian incident' or sometimes the 'Chelyabinsk incident'. A short time after that Trotsky the Bolshevik Commissar for War decided to stop all further evacuations and disarm the Czechoslovak Legions as a result of the incident. He ordered to 'pacify' them by sending them to the Gulag - indeed I believe this was the first time that Communists decided to use the Gulag. This was an even bigger mistake on the part of the Bolsheviks. The Czechoslovak Legion did not disarm and instead got involved in the Russian Civil War. It seized control of the Trans-Siberian railway and conquered significant portions of the Russian territory including some major cities including (but not limited to) Yekaterinburg, Irkutsk, Chelyabinsk, Perm, Ufa, Samara, Vladivostok, etc.. When they conquered Kazan the Czechoslovak Legions seized half the Russian gold reserves. This enabled the Czechoslovak Legions to disengage from the Russian Civil War again, as they exchanged most of the Gold with the Bolsheviks for safe passage and used the rest of the Gold to buy ships for transport back home. The last legionaires left Russia in 1920. And that is the summary of the story of the Czechoslovak Legion's involvement in the Russian Civil War.
 
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Godofgamblers    RE:czech wave of prisoners   4/17/2005 11:33:43 PM
yes, the siberian incident was the one iread about. i was wondering what czechs were doing in that part of the world. what chaos! this is the era when "svejkovat" became a common word, i imagine, he he.
 
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