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Subject: USA vs EU
gixxxerking    1/6/2005 6:13:25 PM
This is the mood in the Fighters forums so I thought I would just declare war here instead. C'mon all you armchair generals, who wins this fight?
 
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gf0012-aust    Tactical Nukes? In the sea?   1/8/2005 10:52:40 PM
As much as I'm a strong supporter of USN capability at aquatic battle management - you're really overstepping the ability of the USN to dominate and hold for sufficient time sea lanes and critical water points. Just a few dot points: The USN has periodically and more frequently struggles against conventionals. Hence why they play in Australias sub warfare training area for extra knowledge. Some in the USN privately acknowledge that although they have technical dominance - they have been deficient in areas such as individual training (Perisher is the loud and clear example of this) Modern conventionals, esp those with AIP and similar packages can stay out as long as they have food and expend ordnance. Although Aust isn't part of this little fracas, the Collins Class was designed to act as a fleet adjunct, that means that her cruise times are similar to nuke rotations - ie 60+ days. In wartime that gets stretched. The larger euro subs have no technical impediment to staying out beyond 45 days. There's more of them, so they can transit and overlap while going on station. The RN has slotted US carriers with the Oberons (which were the benchmark for silence at once point) - The French have succeeded with a Daphne, the Swedes with a Gotland. USB CSF's are not invulnerable - and the fact is that the USN admits that their eyes were off the ball after 1989 in ASW. They're only taking it seriously now, thats a lot of historical and symbiotic capability thats gone and has to be rebuilt over time. You seriously underestimate what a co-ordinated EU response could do, they might not win, but they would make the USN bleed very very badly. The reality is that EU can't even come to common agreement on how to deal with refugees, currency handling issues and train timetables - so it would be interesting to see them all singing from the same sheet of combat music. assuming that they can't is just as idiotic as assuming that it's a walk in the park in waging total (non nuclear) war. The EU military capability of today is not the Reaganesque version of the "evil empire" days. They'd give the Russians a run for their money even at the transnational level. Expecting to conduct successful and immediate sieze and hold operations at an intercontinental level is somewhat brave to think out loud.
 
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french stratege    gixxxerking    1/8/2005 11:02:20 PM
Aegis can counter multiple conventional missiles attack from eighties soviet Backfire but not a 200 sea skimmer salvo against a task force. 3 aegis ship could cope with an hundred but some would however get throught. German alone have 100 Tornado carrying four Kormoran each. And for nuclear I have already answered. Moreover do you think we could not bomb few US factories with TLAM from subs for example? "EU Navy would not last more than 30 days as an effective force. And cease to exist within 60 days " A little arrogant.But even without navy you would not be able to achieve today air superiority and bomb us in a way you could seriously destroy our industry. "The U.S. has the ability to attack space assets at any time" : on low orbit only. BTW we can blind ALSO your reco satellites today with power lasers (yes we have also!). My bet is four US carrier destroyed before US stop attack . "And you advances in anti-stealth tech are a questionable area of research. Not in anyway a deployed system. ": much more than F22 at least! France has a system to cover our territory. US is not able to fight all EU alone today and win.Sorry.
 
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french stratege    RE:USA vs EU   1/8/2005 11:10:05 PM
In fact in no projection force, 6 biggest nations of Europe on military (France, UK, germany, Italy, Spain and Nederland) have roughly 60% of total US air power, are stronguer on land and have as much subs and frigate than US today even they are smaller size.I have never seen in history, an invasion of a country still intact 3000 miles away with such a low margin.
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Tactical Nukes? In the sea? - addendum   1/8/2005 11:19:38 PM
I should have added not only play in the Australian sub warfare training area, but also all the PACRIM/GOLD and SEA class exercises against our neighbours such as Sing, Sth Korea, Japan etc etc.... apols for the typos, but brain functions faster than the fingers sometimes. ;)
 
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gixxxerking    FS   1/9/2005 1:58:59 AM
Nepoleon never saw the end either. And we would beat your the same way we beat the Japanese. By forcing your surrender.
 
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addo    nukes   1/9/2005 4:21:11 AM
If there is no surprise attack from the US (which is more or less impossible) You'd not only have French and british nukes to worry about. Several European countries have nuclear capability in a very short time (Germany, Sweden etc) Pretty arrogant attidude, sixxerprince or whatever your name was..
 
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gixxxerking    addo...grow up   1/9/2005 4:33:41 AM
ANYBODY can be suprise attacked. I though Europeans would know that by now. Also will have nukes soon is a long way from operational status. You think nukes just get up an walk to their targets...lol. And the last thing you want is a Nuclear War with a nation that has prepared to fight one for half a century.
 
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giblets    RE:Preparedness   1/9/2005 6:08:33 AM
"And the last thing you want is a Nuclear War with a nation that has prepared to fight one for half a century" Well I better ask all the RAF personel sitting in their Vulcans, their lightnings, Royal navy in their SSN's and SSBN's etc what they have been doing for the last 50 years or so.
 
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addo    RE:addo...grow up   1/9/2005 6:35:31 AM
As stated, nice attitude.. "ANYBODY can be suprise attacked" So i guess the US can be too? "Also will have nukes soon is a long way from operational status. You think nukes just get up an walk to their targets...lol" You know US isnt the only country in the world with high-tech. "And the last thing you want is a Nuclear War with a nation that has prepared to fight one for half a century " What giblets said. In the end this scenario would be the end of western civilization no matter how much of a patriot you are... Pretty stupid to post a question when you've already decided on what you'r opinion is.
 
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giblets    RE:addo...   1/9/2005 9:08:46 AM
That was a quote from Gixxxerking thanks!
 
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