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Subject: USA vs EU
gixxxerking    1/6/2005 6:13:25 PM
This is the mood in the Fighters forums so I thought I would just declare war here instead. C'mon all you armchair generals, who wins this fight?
 
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Ehran    RE:Gix   1/20/2005 2:20:52 PM
we aren't looking for your military CV or your address etc. A simple statement of rank, branch and the like would be helpful in establishing some manner of credibility.
 
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Ehran    RE:BSL   1/20/2005 2:25:31 PM
i really really doubt anyone is going to be operating armour in greenland. once it freezes up there it's damn near a full time job to keep a vehicle running and undamaged by the cold. diesel turns into jello and steel components simply shatter under stress. they do build special vehicles for those conditions but i wouldn't want to try to keep a mdm armoured unit functional in greenland in december.
 
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gixxxerking    Ehran   1/20/2005 3:48:02 PM
The SOF situation for both of us would be difficult. "we aren't looking for your military CV or your address etc. A simple statement of rank, branch and the like would be helpful in establishing some manner of credibility" Add me to your friends list in yahoo messenger.
 
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IsoT    Gixx ARCTIC and MOUNTAINOUS   1/20/2005 4:00:02 PM
ARCTIC conditions envolve usually skiing in rather cold enviroment. Say -30 celsius on a warm day. NO trees, NO ANYTHING execept snow, LOADS of it. On top of that it is dark all the time. this means that sun doesn't come up In my cribs in Rovaniemi daylight is about from nine to three this time. It might be about the same or worse depending where you are. The cold is such that taking mittens off to adjust something will freeze your hands in two minutes. You get freezes on your face if you don't cover it. Vehicles are next to useles there, you haveto ski and pull ahkio with has all your squad gear. It would be nicer in summer. Then it is light all 24h a day. and weather would be a bit over the zero celsius. Afganistan is Mountainus. you have snowfall, you have freezing temperatures, and you may even have icecaps on high mountains but you never ever have -30 or so. One of my friends who is in reserve nowadays, of course, and teaches PE in highschool But who is a paratroop light infantry. ie guys who would get dropped behind enemy lines in wartime. Maybe the closest thing we have wartime special forces in Finland. Well He and four of his friends from paratroopers decided to do a little skiing in greenland. The meant to ski xcountry to thule if recollection serves. Weather turnead ugly on them, they couldn't get a tent up because of gale and my friend was only one who survived that. Others frose to death. And those were guys who were in great shape for just TRYING to ski over the ice coast to coast in Greenland. Well. This firend of mine has also skied to south pole, so maybe we can doupt his mental faculties.. 8) What I'm saying is that weather would claim A LOT of casualities in Greenland.
 
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gixxxerking    RE:Gixx ARCTIC and MOUNTAINOUS   1/20/2005 4:11:36 PM
I totally agree. Which is why the EU would not invade here. Add to that the US has a base there to protect its forces. Also add the short distance between that base and the United States compared to Greenland to EU.
 
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RM-Nod    RE:Gixx ARCTIC and MOUNTAINOUS   1/20/2005 4:29:23 PM
You do realise that Thule is only, 500km closer to the EU then the US is. What's the point in using that? You might aswell refuel and base aircraft from the US. By the way, you've taken my comments about Greenland way off base; I, and I don't think anyone, suggested taking it by force.
 
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IsoT    Gix plan on Iceland and Cyprus   1/20/2005 4:32:25 PM
So you just divert a fev aeroplanes to Iceland and tell everybody they had bad gas?!?!?! Also Whoever puts the first boots down in Iceland will antagonize the icelanders, thus creating a enviroment where SF forces can operate. Even more so if you use Norwegian or swedish or danish troops, who speak sorta semi same language the Icelanders do. (That is not strictly the case, but they could do hearts and minds) Also this kind of troops would be visually indistinguisable from your average icelander. Considering the tension period you are proposing I'm sure EU would have no scrupules of taking the Iceland. (H*ll they already did it in may 1940). I'm sure Germany, and France would not object. Then it would just be straightforward ferrying of equipment into the Iceland from Norway and UK. Sea voyage would take about two days and then the bastion would be untakable by US forces. HArbours are quite small but could still be used to unload troops. So either way either you are having SOF taking potshots at parked aeroplanes in Keflavik, or you are planning to land on island that has defences in place. EU can suppress SF situation better as they have more troops to go around. Trying to puu Turkey to your side is a good move. but after tourists hae left the island the drinking water is not so much of a problem. Also you have not addressed the problem of havin to defeat 20000+ pissed off cypriots and and their british cronies. (I'm not sure what is the reserve situation but 20000 is listed as active) What I've read suggest that germans found out that cypriots fight even without weapons... EU would just start making overtunes to Kurds about how US betrayed them in both gulf wars and how EU is willing to give them their own Kurdistan after US and Turkey have been defeated. 8) Thus Turkey would have its hands full in Asia and not able to help.
 
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gixxxerking    Operation Sea Lion 2   1/20/2005 5:20:31 PM
Operation Sea Lion 2 In any event the goal of this war would be to bring the EU to surrender in as short a time as possible. Some here wonder, "why attack the UK with such a small force"? Well the answer is simple. My objective is very limited but far reaching. If I could demonstrate the ability to inflict great harm on the UK, percieved by most of Europe to be its most powerful military. It would shake the will of some lesser nations. Two of the highest symbols of British strength is the RN and RAF. The RN is largely confined to port and littoral waters because of the number of USN SSN and CSF. Under the protection of land based air the RN could preserve itself. The RAF provides that protection. Some say, gix, 12 hour of contested air superiority? Maybe less, then you have the French and German AF rushing in, what will you do when many Rafale, Mirage, F-4F are after your small force? Well I will not oppose such a powerful force directly! And yes they would certainly re-establish air superiority over the UK. I pick 12 hours, ok ok EU is very efficient so lets say realistically 6 to 8 hours. Those 6 to 8 hours is because France and Germany will be defending themselves too! Fighters will need re-arming, re-fueling and breifing. But what happens in that six hours? RAF has approx 90 Tornado, 6 AWACs and Harrier which is good(proven against high performance fighters) at a2a. If my initial TLAM attacks and SOF can blind EW radar and F-22 can supercruise in to get RAF AWACS in the air. This would tremedously degrade RAF for at least a few minutes. I will discuss the next few minutes in a few moments. But first allow me to discuss some very over looked benefits of the F-22. It will supercruise at 3x the cruise speed of some fighters. The fact means it will be in a position to fire AMRAAM before AWACS can escape or vector defending fighters. If even one AWACS goes down, it will leave a tremendous hole if coverage. SSN could get to within 50 miles of one of the coastal EW radar sites and fire TLAM. The fate of 1 SSN insignificant after that, but a good captain would have a fair chance of escape but I digress. EA-6B also contributes. Now for a few minutes a hole is open in the UK IAD radar coverage. The Tornado and Few Typhoons are good fighters with good crews. But without comprehensive pre first day of the war EW and AWACs, GCI do not have the radar to cover UK from low flying TLAM and Stealth aircraft. You likely have 25% to 33% mayber even 50% of fighters up on CAP if you sense hostilities imminent. Thats 25 to 50 fighters up or on high alert on the ground ready within 5 minutes. This means a competent force, which the RAF is, will get most if not all of its alert interceptors in the air before the bulk of cruise missiles and Stealth A/C get to their targets. But in the 6 to 36 minutes it takes for the missiles to arrive the runways are damaged and TLAMs begin exploding over barracks, command centers and taxi ways, parked a/c. Imagne the carnage. But a robust force can take this because of HAS dispersal. There will still be significant losses if even half of the TLAMs get by the CAP. SAMs will help but most of your SAMs in UK are for local air defence and have short range. Also they have to excercise extreme caution not to engage RAF taking off and landing. So now we have RAF fighters, about 50 hunting hard to find TLAMs while being hunted by F-22. The a2a advantage is clearly with the Raptor because even in an AWACS survives and detects Raptor is will be difficult to engage at BVR. But the Raptor will have little difficulty engaging conventional fighters. In the confusion F-15C appears to assist the Raptors, careful to stay at high altitude and aviod SAMs. The battle will in all likely hood be one by the F-22/F-15 whos total numbers will be over 50. Below TLAM/JASSM/JSOW/ALCM/SDB from B-2/B-1B/F-15E/F/A-18E/B-52H/SSN/SSGN are laying waste to RAF on the ground. F-16CJ is also hunting now. French and German fighters wont appear for another hour because they are defending homeland. Second wave of Strikers and missiles begins to hit RN ports and capital ships. Hit Particularly hard is the UK RN facility that servies SSBNs, HMNB Clyde IIRC. If the strike is effective this will start the countdown to the irrelevance of the UK SSBN fleet. Any SSBN present, will be a primary target. Without support facility, SSBN at sea will have 1 years to 6 months minus any time they have been at seen until they will need to RTB. Where will they go? How reliable will missiles be without service? what will the crew eat? ect. Thus half of the EU nuclear deterent is effectively removed. With this mission completed, the strike force will withdraw to CSF or NAS Keflavik. 100+ USN/USAF fighters on CAP with Patriot and Aegis
 
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gixxxerking    RE:Gix plan on Iceland and Cyprus   1/20/2005 5:37:14 PM
"Then it would just be straightforward ferrying of equipment into the Iceland from Norway and UK." Is Norway in the EU? Also take a look at my timeline. Your too late in Iceland if it takes 2 days. Also Icelanders have good US relations. And US Rangers could do COIN Ops. It would definately be on the front line, but with US sea superiority and EU lift restrictions I dont think you could reinforce it faster that the US. We would have one Airborne infantry regiment, Stryker division and Ranger Regiment there within 120 days. Any EU landing would be opposed by Icelanders and US. Also Thule helps to secure Iceland as well as CSF/SSN. Cyprus is an iffy situation that depends on Turkey remaining nutral or on US side. Otherwise its a waste. And EU could not destablise Iraq any more than it is. And US forces there are proving to be adequate to hold that ground. So it depends on if you wanna throw Turkey into the equation. If you do then I will throw Israel in on US side. Same effect more secure location. Also with regard to water it is a critical issue for Cyprus. Government wold have to protect its citizens or face looting and riots followed by disease and death. Military units wouls have some water organic but none for sustained operations if purification plants are bombed. This wouls hinder any ability to fight. And EU would have to fly water in from Greece which is 1300+ km away through US fighters. US would bring it from CONUS on C-17/C-5 from west coast of the United States. Pacific Fleet and USAF could do this rapidly and efficiently as demonstarted by the Tsunami relief effort.
 
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Nemesis1    RE:Operation Sea Lion 2   1/20/2005 5:43:59 PM
Why do you continue this pointless debate? What are you trying to prove, most have given up refuting you, just give it a rest and let the thread die Even in your most recent post on the first few hours of the war you assume Iceland will be taken and aircraft will be flying from there. It is loaded with inaccuracies and assumptions which have already been pointed out Nemesis
 
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