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Subject: USA vs EU
gixxxerking    1/6/2005 6:13:25 PM
This is the mood in the Fighters forums so I thought I would just declare war here instead. C'mon all you armchair generals, who wins this fight?
 
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tigertony    RE:Tony   2/11/2005 4:15:32 PM
Hey maybe they did!,but i didnt, nor my grandfather who killed them!. Someone such is you is not worth my time saving,and as someone who believes in God,thats bad!. I also believe in his laws!. 1} Thou Shall Not Kill. Now this is my point with all of you. See what i find funny is that the God of the Jew,the Muslim,and the Christian are all one of the same,the Creator!.This is what is amazing with everyone almost today. Nobody gets it, nor have any problem disobeying his very 1st law!. And to anyone who thinks there is no God remember this " Man maybe gods greatest creation!. But man will never achieve the grace of god,for no matter what we do or what we make or what we grow, we will never make something from nothing as god!. My last point to the Muslim Extremist i say this " When the last seed of the Jew and Christian is washed from the earth,yet can still find no peace.Who will you kill next???.And to the anti -terrorists i say this "when the last drop of muslim blood drys in the sand,yet you can still find no peace.Who will you kill next to attain it???". Peace Everyone!
 
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gixxxerking    Sam the Man   2/11/2005 4:36:56 PM
"So you were a Brad commander for both OEF and OIF."--- SAM I never said what my job was there. And I am not going to get into another vetting contest with you guys. I was there. That simply has to be enough for you. If not you have my deepest sympathy. To get back on topic. LAPD and LASD(where I used to work) both has top notch SWAT/SEB teams. Fully the equal of military units in CQB. SWAT teams do not make dynamic entries for any other reason but to kill suspects. Negotiators and patrolmen make arrest. If they move in, its to kill. If a suspect is lucky and doesnt have a weapon, they will detain him. But this is no different than Delta or SAS entering a room and a little girl runs across the room. These SWAT teams train with DoD SOF all the time and have emormous budgets. Unlike military units which are used on specific instances. Police Officers are, ALWAYS in harms way each and everyday the show up to work. And their, SWAT, skill cannot simply be ignored. They would absolutely overwhelm any SOF if they made a mistake and got caught in a LE perimeter whithin a US city. SAS could do damage but it could not fight toe to toe in the US with major LE agency. Drug dealers have the advantage of actually being part of the local population. Intimately familiar with the environment and completely annonomous. Until the get a record. After that they are tracked with ease. The US intelligence is likely to have detailed files on almost all known members of the SAS and other EU SOF. Maybe even voice and/or fingerprints too. This would make it very difficult to evade capture for a unit attempting to blend in to the population. I acknowledge its not impossible. But it would not be a walk in the park. And then you have to ask, what is the worse thing the EU SOF could do? How likely is it? What can be done to stop it? Then you will see than while this will give some successes. The likely hood of it altering the war in such a way as to tip the scales to the EU is very very small.
 
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gixxxerking    RE:Big E, Post again cannot read -- Can you hear me now?   2/11/2005 4:38:46 PM
Hope it works. I have much much more on this. But this should clear up the confusion. -- link -- link -- link -- link
 
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gixxxerking    Sam --allies   2/11/2005 4:40:17 PM
I wouldnt say begged. More like someone asking you if they can borrow your shoes while holding a gun.
 
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Sam     Both are having runtime errors, you know the post   2/11/2005 4:44:52 PM
 
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gixxxerking    RE: Both are having runtime errors, you know the post How about now?   2/11/2005 4:46:18 PM
link link link link
 
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Worcester    RE:Sam the Man   2/11/2005 5:19:28 PM
Ah, so gixx was a cop as well. Probably nearer the truth. "American intelligence is LIKELY to have detailed files on ALMOST all known members of the SAS and EU SOF." Substitute "UNLIKELY" and SOME OF. A force which pioneered Counter Revolutionary Warfare when we hadn't heard of "hearts and minds", a unit which pioneered explosive entry and which has run intelligence ops inside the Provisional IRA amongst others are unlikely to be as insecure as you think. SAS and UKSF Group are very cellullar/small team organizations. On the other hand, since SAS selected and trained the first Delta operators and SAS ran selection for the first two intakes at Bragg it's just possible they may know quite few of our guys.. (Historical note, that's why it's called "Delta" in case you didn't know.) And in case you think these are just 'snake eaters', they've been operating in the urban jungle in civilian clothes with civlian cover, speaking in local languages and even local accents for at least 35 years. Enter a US city, no problem, or near a US air base or port. Strategic targets..electric power (easy, even non-explosive), telephone utilities (ditto, especially with an EM device which also wipes out police radio), car bombs, trash bombs...all sequenced to cause chaos and public panic. Or they could let their snipers loose on the big hits. Your're looking for teams of 1 or 2 infiltrating, grouping to 4 for recon and grouping to 16 for the hit, then fading away exiting with the crowds (no iD checks or road blocks in NY on 9/11 - way too many people). By contrast, our SF dont have anything like the undercover urban terrorist experience; regardess of who is "best", there is no doubt their SF could make a mess here and get away with it.
 
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Sam    What are you trying to say, that you were wrong?   2/11/2005 5:39:02 PM
Ok Navy League TR diverted link says TR was suppose to go to Persian Gulf to relieve Enterprise. That one reenforces my point, that Enterprise wasn't even in the Med at the time of AF "The Theodore Roosevelt battle group, which arrived in the Mediterranean on 3 April, was originally slated to deploy directly to the Persian Gulf to relieve the USS Enterprise battle group. Instead, Cohen ordered the USS Kitty Hawk battle group, based in Yokosuka, Japan, to relieve the Enterprise battle group so it could return to the United States on schedule (in May). " Your Free Serbia link says the same thing. Your other link, a mil pic site has a pic of E dated 21 Feb 99 and says she is supporting Operation Allied Force. But the Jump off date/Start Date of Allied Force is 21 March. So its mislabeled. I know that she was in the med during the prior months(she was on a med cruise afterall) and I'm shure she may have conducted flight ops (Nobile anvil?) BUT when Allied Force started she was in the arabian sea conducting Southern Watch. That is an undeniable fact. It is also an undeniable fact that she arrived home on time and according to her origional return date. So by posting 2 links that back up my original post In addition to the Navy history web site link I provided and the NATO Allied Force web site. Are you now saying that she wasn't in the Med and wasn't involved in OAF?
 
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gixxxerking    RE:Sam the Man   2/11/2005 5:52:59 PM
"Ah, so gixx was a cop as well. Probably nearer the truth. "American intelligence is LIKELY to have detailed files on ALMOST all known members of the SAS and EU SOF." Substitute "UNLIKELY" and SOME OF. A force which pioneered Counter Revolutionary Warfare when we hadn't heard of "hearts and minds", a unit which pioneered explosive entry and which has run intelligence ops inside the Provisional IRA amongst others are unlikely to be as insecure as you think. SAS and UKSF Group are very cellullar/small team organizations. On the other hand, since SAS selected and trained the first Delta operators and SAS ran selection for the first two intakes at Bragg it's just possible they may know quite few of our guys.. (Historical note, that's why it's called "Delta" in case you didn't know.) And in case you think these are just 'snake eaters', they've been operating in the urban jungle in civilian clothes with civlian cover, speaking in local languages and even local accents for at least 35 years. Enter a US city, no problem, or near a US air base or port. Strategic targets..electric power (easy, even non-explosive), telephone utilities (ditto, especially with an EM device which also wipes out police radio), car bombs, trash bombs...all sequenced to cause chaos and public panic. Or they could let their snipers loose on the big hits. Your're looking for teams of 1 or 2 infiltrating, grouping to 4 for recon and grouping to 16 for the hit, then fading away exiting with the crowds (no iD checks or road blocks in NY on 9/11 - way too many people). By contrast, our SF dont have anything like the undercover urban terrorist experience; regardess of who is "best", there is no doubt their SF could make a mess here and get away with it." --Worcester Knock it off with the nearer to the truth comments. NOTHING I said is false. Debate the topic and do not post lite insults. Our SOF have at least an equivilent level of experience and ability to cause death and destruction. I am aware of the various histories that go with the worlds SOF forces. Bottom line is that France used to be a world power too! Look where they are today. U.K. used to have the best navy, look whos the king now. Things change. Unless you are US SOF you do not know of even 90% of the missions they have conducted. It is impossible in any open forum to compare what of these groups are capable of and who is the best. The only truly professional assessment of these various groups is that they are all capable to some extend of causing similair damage. That includes Al-Qaeda. Would it end or even change the war, not likely. But they would be useful to both sides. But what is fact is that the U.S. has gained some significant improvements in fighting these threats in CONUS. Given the time and opportunity. There is little these groups, to include Al-Qaeda, cant do. But this is an operation moving at rapid pace. Aside from rhetoric and build up of forces on both sides. Very little is being done that would say war is imminent. The window for infiltrating is very small. I know what is possible. But I want to hear from those who think this would be a significant factor how such SOF missions would be pulled off and how you think it would affect the war effort.
 
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Bluewings    RE:Laying out your views on this subject?   2/11/2005 6:16:24 PM
let 's see ... 1) "I think that it boils down to strategic advantage" Any Nation defending its homeland has the strategic advantage , Europe in this case . 2) "I think that the United States has almost all the offensive options and initiative" I disagree here . Your 1st and FORCED option is to deal with UK and France Nuclear deterrement . Your 2nd and FORCED option is to get close enough to EU to start with . Your 3rd and FORCED option is to tackle EU Air Defense System AS WELL as Navy coastal defenses . Etc ... Europe has again the advantage of just preparing itrself , sit tight and wait for your 1st move , if we DECIDE to play the waiting game . We could decide otherwise , our choice . 3) "Control of the Sea and Space are also near certainty" I disagree again . A) If Europe decide that throwing the British and French Navies at yours is a reasonable bet (?) , casualties on BOTH sides will be nothing short of shocking . Let the Battle decide who owns the Sea . B) If Europe decide not to sent the Navies in open water , the US will indeed own Blue waters ~with the 24/7 threat of EU ' SSNKs ~ and that 's about it . You cannot do anything in the middle of the Ocean as you still have to come in range to start any Operation . The US will NEVER archieve Air supremacy over Europe . To say otherwise is foolish and suicidal . Europe outnumber the US by at least 6:1 , and we don 't fly Mig-21s or Frogfoots . I cannot even imagine the US destroying more than 25% of Europe 's Ground Air Defenses . 4) "a secure logistics line" That does NOT exist . From the German U-Boats during WW2 to Irakis free fighters , history has demonstrated that suplies and logistics are amongst the most formidable problem to overcome for any Forces . You suppose to know that . I will not even quote the rest as it is just bragging . The United States of America cannot with a War against Europe . Cheers .
 
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