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Subject: Soviet Union defeated the Germans not the Allies
SoldierOfFortune    11/16/2004 6:30:01 PM
It’s high time Russia was accorded overdue recognition of its prime role in the World War II defeat of National Socialist Germany and its allies. Most North Americans seem to believe the US-British-Canadian landings at Normandy were the decisive stroke of the war. Not so. When the Allies invaded France, most of the war-battered German units they met were undermanned, short of armor, trucks, and heavy artillery, almost immobile, and reduced to 40% combat effectiveness by previous hard fighting on the Eastern Front. Most important, Germany’s once splendid air force was almost extinct. German forces at Normandy had almost no air cover and were pounded day and night by thousands of Allied strike aircraft and bombers. Few recall that 15,000-20,000 French civilians in Normandy were killed by the ferocious Allied bombing campaign The Germans still put up fierce resistance against overwhelming odds, inflicting 209,000 casualties on the Allies and suffering 200,000 of their own. As Churchill observed, `you will never know war until you fight Germans.’ Still, in spite of the heroism of the Allied forces at Normandy, the Wehrmacht was not defeated in France, as many still believe, but on the Eastern Front, during 1941-1944, by Stalin’s Soviet Union, a tyranny far more murderous and bloodthirsty than Adolf Hitler’s Germany. The Red Army claims to have destroyed 507 German divisions, 48,000 German tanks and 77,000 enemy aircraft; 100 divisions of Nazi-allied Romania, Hungary, and Italy; and at least 450,000 Japanese soldiers, 32% of Japan’s total military losses. Of Germany’s 10 million casualties in WWII, 75% came fighting the Red Army. The Luftwaffe lost most of its warplanes and its best pilots in the East. Almost all German military production went to supplying the 1,600km Eastern Front, where elite German forces were ground up in titanic battles like Kursk and Stalingrad involving millions of men. Soviet forces lost upwards of 20 million casualties; total US casualties (including the Pacific) were one million. To the Russians, D-Day, as well as the North African and Italian campaigns, were mainly diversionary side-shows to tie down German troops while the Red Army pushed on to Berlin. We may dispute this view, but there’s little doubt the Soviets destroyed most of Germany’s military capability well before June, 1944. It’s interesting to speculate what would have happened if Hitler had not invaded the USSR, and if the Allies would then have landed in Normandy to face intact German forces with air cover. My own view: the Allies would have been beaten as quickly and thoroughly as the French Army in 1940. On the other hand, if the Allies had not landed in France in June, 1944, the Red Army might well have reached Paris, and the North Sea ports sometime in 1945. D-Day must also be thought of as a race between the Allies and the Soviet Union. The Soviet Army in 1945, was the mightiest Army the world had ever seen. Their tank formations, air-force, land armies, armored corps and shock troops was like nothing the allies could muster up. If a war did break out between the Allies and Soviets in 1946, the Soviets would have been the clear victors in that campaign. The Allies simply did not have the numerical and technological superiority to hold back the Red Army.
 
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dudley    RE:Soviet Union defeated the Germans not the Allies   11/16/2004 6:34:58 PM
If the allies werent at war with the germans on the western front and tied down at least half of Germanies recources,well never know will we?Brit and US bombing of german industries would not have happened.Maybe Germany could have driven to Vladivostok.
 
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USN-MID    RE:Soviet Union defeated the Germans not the Allies   11/16/2004 7:01:50 PM
Same goes for all that Lend Lease aid to the Soviets.
 
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Kozmik Imperial    RE:Soviet Union defeated the Germans not the Allies   11/16/2004 7:11:15 PM
well the americans knew if they didn't cough up money and equipment to the russians it would of been a futile war, and they would lose
 
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fall out    RE:Soviet Union defeated the Germans not the Allies   11/16/2004 9:31:04 PM
German production peaked in 1944, despite massive bombing raids by Britain and the US, the only time when German production decreased was when allied and Russian forces actually started to occupy some of Greater Germany. The Soviets were lucky too, the Germans caught them by surprise and if an idiotic corporal had not been stuffing up many military decisions, the USSR would have ceased to exist! Thankfully it didnt
 
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bunglefoot    RE:Soviet Union defeated the Germans not the Allies   11/16/2004 10:03:51 PM
The Soviet Union could not go all the way on their own, mainly during the beginning of the war and they received help. However, in terms of human cost they paid the highest price, and my hat goes off to them for this.
 
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mike_golf    RE:Soviet Union defeated the Germans not the Allies   11/16/2004 10:57:43 PM
SOF, it sounds great. I haven't read anyone else's responses. Here's what I have to say to your rant. I agree that the USSR did the majority of the ground fighting, took the majority of the casualties and defeated the majority of the Wehrmacht. Here's where you will get upset. Russia, by itself, could never have defeated Germany. The best they could hope to accomplish was a stalemate. Russia and the UK, together, could barely have defeated Germany. The only way that Germany could be defeated by 1945, in a total victory, was with the United States as part of the Allies. Germany outproduced the USSR in every important category that mattered, except oil. But the Wehrmacht had enough for the offensives of 41 and 42. Without American and UK LendLease Russia would have been stalemated or suing for peace by the end of 42. I would suggest you need to read some accounts of world war 2 that look at logistics and industrial production and compare Russia to Germany.
 
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mike_golf    RE:Soviet Union defeated the Germans not the Allies   11/16/2004 11:16:23 PM
Follow up to my previous comments. The USA, by itself, could have defeated Germany. FDR chose to have the USSR provide the manpower, but he didn't have to. The USA could have, given a bit more time, produced enough tanks of the M26 generation, enough aircraft, artillery, trucks, etc. to produce an Army that could do the same thing to the Germans that the Red Army did. There was no need when the Russians were going to do it for him, all he had to do was provide them with the LendLease support needed to allow the Red Army to go from being a static, defensive force to a mobile, offensive force.
 
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dudley    RE:Soviet Union defeated the Germans not the Allies   11/17/2004 5:28:15 AM
From what ive read Zhukovs approach to defeating the nazis wasnt based on mobility but in massive head on brute force.He didnt try to out flank or to be smarter in military doctrine than the germans.I know some campaigns looked like that but the german retreat just gave that perception.
 
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gf0012-aust    Soviet Union defeated the Germans not the Allies   11/17/2004 5:46:08 AM
The potential problem for Zhukov was that Stalin was getting twitchy about all the glory he was picking up as a "Hero of the Soviet Union" For a psychotic that had a propensity to shoot generals on sight, crush entire villages in the Ukraine for an alleged misdemeanor etc... that meant that old Zhukov was lucky to complete his innings. It didn't pay to have a star that outshone Stalins. More to the point, it would have been interesting to see how Russia would have coped if Stalin had decided to send Zukhov to an early grave. If I might make an observation, I think SOF's fundamental disagreement with all things american is colouring his judgement on the US contribution - and how much the Russians were actually on the ropes at a logistical level. Take away even the Brit support of 200 spitfires early in the struggle - and Russia would have been belted by the germans at the most inopportune times. The Russians naturally don't talk about how much aid they got in LendLease - as do the Chinese about US support for them in WW2 (probably because it was for that opportunistic little ferret Chiang Kai Shek. ;) The Russians gave the Germans a pasting, but they did a lot of it in dc-3's, tomahawks and studebaker 6x6's (to name a few)
 
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bigfella    RE:Soviet Union defeated the Germans not the Allies - Yes, and?   11/17/2004 6:56:57 AM
SOF, I am a little puzzled about the purpose of your post. Remember, this is a military board. WE KNOW! With due deference to my American friends, if you start threads based on the 'most Americans don't know' principle you'll have to start with which side of their country the Pacific is on and keep on truckin' from there. Hell, I could defiantly proclaim that most Americans don't understand the relevance of Anglo-French rivallry & the Napoleonic Wars to early American political & economic development. So What? Yes, Russia did all the heavy lifting in Europe and yes, they paid a terrible price. Without aid from Britain & the US they would have struggled to achieve more than a costly stalemate, but it would have crippled Germany too. WW2 was a team effort. Everyone contributed something: The Brits gave their all, pretty much crippling their economy; Their dominions & colonies also contributed mightily; The Norwegians gave their huge merchant fleet; the Belgians fought bravely and gave the Congo's resources (esp. uranium); the Dutch fought on even longer; The Americans contributed industrial might on a scale that is almost impossible to comprehend; it also contributed a huge fighting force that almost sing;le-handedly defeated Japan and tied down one German flank. France forced thousdands of German troops to guard POW camps. Relative to its resources Russia probably contributed more than any other nation. it deserves regognition for that, and I doubt you will find anyone here who disagrees. This, of course, brings me back to my original point, why bother?. WE ALREADY KNOW. Expected future SOF posts: Germany lost WW1. Nth Vietnam successfully invaded Sth Vietnam. The Korean war was a 0 - 0 draw. Yugoslavia is smaller than it used to be. There are LOTS of Chinese (and they all talk funny). There are LOTS of Indians (no, in India silly!) I can't wait!
 
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