Most Influential Battle in History?!

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Tercio RE:Most Influential.....wjr, densoflex 9/16/2004 7:52:09 AM

wjr wrote: "Also, don't forget Lepanto. The Venetians were a real piece of work (the Doges must have been the model for organized crime bosses) but they did a great service for the rest of the West in killing Islamic sea power." The Republic of Venetia played a huge role in Lepanto, no doubt about it (its galleases did a splendid job), but it's better not to forget the other participants in the Christian side: Papal states, Genoa, Knights of St. John..., and Spain, which provided the largest number of vessels and men (many of them to reinforce the unmanned Venetian vessels)...I couldn't avoid this little nationalistic chest beating >;-D link link densoflex, nice to listen you enjoyed Alatriste's adventures. Btw, History teachers in Spain recommend them for their students, they provide quite a good understanding of the Spanish Golden Age. Tercio

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stratego RE:Most Influential Battle in History?! 9/16/2004 1:17:06 PM

Well, the establishment of American independence was important, I agree, but was Yorktown the decisive battle? I read that the British sued for peace at that time becasue the gretest French admiral in history was wrecking havic on the British in India. India was much more important to the British than America, becuse they made a ton of money there, and only hoped to make it in America. This French admiral (sorry I don't have the name)was apparently the only admiral the French ever had who was superior to the British Admirals. Finally, by concnetrating their naval forces on him, they defeated him. They pulled out of America to better do this. I read this in a book long ago about the most decisive battles in the World. I'll see if I can find it in the library, maybe someone else is familiar with this story.

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stratego RE:Salamina&Platea 9/16/2004 1:20:54 PM

Yes, and I woudl add Thermopyle, where a tiny contingent of Spartans held the entire Persian army at bay for days, killing wave after wave of elite troops and fighting, as always, to the last man. I beleive this battle, insignificant in material, made the Persians believe they were fighting an enemy that could not be beaten.

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densoflex French Admirals: Stratego 9/16/2004 1:25:41 PM

Statego, the French admiral you're speaking of is Suffren. He was at this time in India and indeed he drove the British mad. But Suffren was barely a squadron commander and he was fighting on a secondary theater. The other great French admiral of the period is Count de Grasse. He won off the American coast and thus allowed allied victory in Yorktown. He was later defeated by Rodney. In my opinion, the greatest French admiral was Tourville, Duquesne coming next.

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stratego RE:French Admirals: Stratego 9/16/2004 1:40:27 PM

Thanks densoflex. Sounds like the book I read got it wrong. Back to the decisive battle of the American Revolution. Many feel there was no decisive battle. There was a guerilla war aspect to this war, and decisive battles can be hard to find there. (ie, I'll fight until you go home or every soldier is dead.) Saratoga is probably the most popular candidate. However, it has an awkward aspect. The battle was won by Benedict Arnold. Amazingly, Arnold had no command authority in the battle. He simply took aver some troops that were standing around and led them to the decisive point at the decisive time. Saratoga frustrated the only real British attempt at "strategy"---the attempt to cut America into 2 pieces. But I'm a little skeptical that this strategy would have been decisive against our then-primitive country. I like Trenton. Washington down to 3,000 guys. The British commander (Howe?) decides it is not worth the trouble to destroy him, as winter is coming on, he can do it just as well in spring, and Philadelphia was full of willing Tory babes. Howe's second in command was sharper, begged to be able to attack, said Howe didn't understand the nature of George Washington and he needed to be killed immediately. Luckily for us, Howe said no. And I ask you, what motivates 3,000 guys to fight after 37,000 decided to go home (with a guaranteed complete automatic pardon for everyone but George Washington himself? I can't believe it was partriotism for a country that did not yet exist. I figure these must have been tough MFers who would rather die than turn chicken in front of their buddies and it was George himself, who, quite simply, was the man.

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AlbanyRifles Gettysburg? Please! 9/16/2004 1:40:57 PM

Don't believe the opening of the movie "Gettysburg"....it is based on a novel. A great story but lousy history. Gettysburg was a failed raid....the more important battle happened the next day 1000 miles to the Southwest when Vicksburg fell. The most important battle of the Civil War was a campaign.....Petersburg, VA. Once Grant got there (here), it was all over.

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stratego RE:Gettysburg? Please! 9/16/2004 1:50:29 PM

Well, wars are always over after the last battle but that does not neccessariyl make the last battle decisive. Vicksburg is a good candidate, because that put Grant on the sure pathway to command of the Union army, which was waht lead to victory. I also like Shiloh, because it introduced Grant and Sherman to each other and thus formed the winning team of the war. The most decisive moment occured outside a battle during the withering barrage of press attacks on Grant after Shiloh (the bloodiest battle to date in hte war and one of the bloodiest battles in history up to that point, which Grant definately screwed up very badly). The decisive point of the war was when Sherman convinced Grant, who already had his bags packed, not to quit and go home.

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stratego RE:denso 9/16/2004 1:56:24 PM

Teutoberger Wald is interesting because it was such an effective use of terrain. The Germans prided themselves on their ferocity and warlike nature, but on open plains, the Romans outmanouvered them with their disciplined formations. At Teutoberger Wald, the Germans got to turn the battle into a series of one-on-one matches.

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RockPicken RE:Most Influential Battle in History?! 9/16/2004 5:59:20 PM

In recent history, the Battle of Britain stands out as a crucial turning point in WWII. Had Britain not been able to defend herself adequately, Hitler may still have bumbled himself out of world dominance, but it would've made things a LOT different for the Allies.

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RockPicken RE:Most Influential Battle in History?! 9/16/2004 6:11:01 PM

You could say the invasion of Normandy in 1944 was quite pivotal. Had the Allies failed to gain ground and keep it, Rommel would've had time to run a few crack Panzer and SS groups down there and really cause havoc at the critically wrong time for the Allied troops. I keep going back to WWII because it's what I know best. No doubt farther back in history are pivotal events, as y'all have posted, that could be likened to the influence levels of Normandy.

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