Most Influential Battle in History?!

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Ehran RE:Most Influential Battle in History?! 9/17/2004 12:13:05 PM

perhaps the battle of quebec would be the most important battle in "modern" history. while it involved modest numbers of bodies on either side it did have most profound consequences. it destroyed the french hold in north american and set the stage for the american insurrection and the founding of the current world order.

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Ander320 Quebec 9/18/2004 3:59:58 PM

Que'bec would be i think the "most arrogant battle". Montcalm the french leader have no need to confront Wolfe. He already repel assault on the city and have the reserve in the town to wait until the renforcement and the winter. Wolfe have to go back and leave the siege 'cause of the winter coming. He just put his army on the battlefield and the stupid hotbloodded Montcalm acce"pt the "useless" fight. What an ass! But on the Canada loss: The english would have let the Canada to the french in exchange of the Antille (especially Haiti). I read Choiseul (french minister) said Louis XVI the best was to leave Canada. (money wise)

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Ander320 RE:French Admirals: Stratego 9/18/2004 4:03:22 PM

Suffren was a better admiral than De Grasse (even if this one was not to bad). He manage to put several bite to the english Navy in Indian ocean with less force and less logistical support for his fleet. He also manage to do that with very few loss. The US independant for France and Spain was mostly a naval war. On the whole picture, the allies get the better of the Royal Navy but by a few margin and with some important casualties on both side.

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Ander320 RE:French Admirals: Stratego 9/18/2004 4:06:22 PM

"In my opinion, the greatest French admiral was Tourville, Duquesne coming next. " Well no doubt Tourville and Duquesne were good. But Suffren was better from my point of view. The only difference is that when he acceed higher command after the US independance war, he never fought again so can't prove his valor at higher command level. What he did in the indian ocean given the number was still great achievement.

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Ehran RE:Quebec 9/19/2004 9:37:57 PM

once wolfe got his troops onto the plains of abraham montcalm had to accept battle. had he not it would have been a fairly simple matter for the british to pound their way into quebec city.

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human7 RE:Most Influential Battle in History?! - American Civil War or Revolutionary War 9/19/2004 9:44:43 PM

American Civil War -Strange to think what the world would look like with two Americans: One North & One South. American Revoltionary War -If America did not win the war, America would probably be a Vassal State of the UK like Canada & Australia. --------- What I am trying to say is that today's world would look a lot different if America was not a super power.

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french stratege I would said Valmy 9/20/2004 1:44:55 PM

If I have to consider few most influencial battle I would look to a single decisive battle whom outcome have changed the world.I would look for countries which have shaped modern world by power, influence and ideas on a permanent way.The lineage of these country is ancient Greece, Roman Empire, France, England , USA, and their main foes which could have moved to promeminent position if they have won(Russia, and Germany). Battle: For example,Stalingrad is one of few but what not decisive by itself. A list of decisive Battle would start from Salamine and go from Normandy battle, via defeat of Athenians from Lysandre, Veies battle against Etruscians, Battle of Zama against Carthage, Battle of Alesia against Gauls,Battle of Actium which changed Rome political system..battle of Campo Catalaunis (battle of Chalon agaisnt Huns), Battle of Tolbiac by Clovis which started France dominance, Battle of Orleans agaisnt England which separated France and England, Battle of yorktown which started USA (but maybe they could have won later),Battle of Valmy which saved French revolution and end ancient regimes, Battle of Trafalgar, Waterloo, Sedan in 1870 which stated German empire and cycle of world wars, Battle of the Marne in 1914 which avoid decisive victory of Germany, Battle of Normandy (but not decisive by its own - add El Alamein, Stalingrad and Kursk) .. Victory in 1918 was not decisive as WW2 started, as Russian Revolution since communism is dead. I would choose in recent history battle of Valmy: Saved the French revolution which spread its idea in Europe,removed absolutes monarchies and aristocratic system at the end, saved USA indirectly, and allowed Napoleon to raise to power (when he was defeated 20 years after the world have changed definitively). The first modern battle with conscript army and started the concept of armed nation and total war. It had really changed the world for the best and the worst.

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Tercio RE:I would said Valmy-french stratege 9/21/2004 2:52:56 AM

"The lineage of these country is ancient Greece, Roman Empire," SPAIN, "France, England , USA" I needed to make this comment. Tercio

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french stratege Tercio 9/21/2004 9:24:34 AM

It is true that Spain-Charles Quint empire was the military dominant nation in the 16th century but not from a cultural or economic point of view.Think that France was two time more populated than Spain and more wealthy basically or that cultural influence came from nothern Italy and France or England at his time. Habsbourg empire was not strong enought to win against France or even British (see invincible Armada). When France stabilized it self from civil wars under HenriIV then Richelieu, it end Habsbourg power. What remains from Spain as heritage apart negative model of inquisition and economic disaster? Spain was the retrograd conservative power. Spain belong of group of historical challenging power like Ottoman, Germany, Carthage, Medes, Germany or Russia which have failed.It does not belong from the direct western lineage of dominant powers which have shaped western history thus the world.

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Tercio French Stratege 9/21/2004 10:36:33 AM

Today I'm in the right mood for locking horns... "It is true that Spain-Charles Quint empire was the military dominant nation in the 16th century but not from a cultural or economic point of view". Culture: El Greco, Vel�zquez, Murillo, Cervantes, Lope de Vega, Quevedo, Garcilaso..., examples of a 2nd tier cultural power?. Economy: The gold coming from the Americas feed Europe as a whole (as the Habsburgs had to pay the loans adquired with the Fuggers and some Genoese bankers). "Habsbourg empire was not strong enought to win against France or even British (see invincible Armada)." Spain (and Portugal) was strong enough to enjoy full hegemony in Europe, control over the majority of the Americas, the Portuguese posesions in Asia and an effective control of the Indian, Pacific and Atlantic ocean from Charles I (V of Germany) to Philip IV (by the end of the Thirty years war). After that, England became the master of the seas and France the dominant power in Europe. Following your logic, Rome was not powerful enough since the barbarians dismantled its empire in its decadency. None is on the top of the hill forever. "What remains from Spain as heritage apart negative model of inquisition and economic disaster?" 300+ millions of Spanish speakers?, Columbus?, Don Quixote?, Don Juan?, Las Meninas?, the treasures looted by Soult et al currently kept in the Louvre? (apparently Napoleon generals had better opinion of the Spanish Golden Age than you...) "Spain was the retrograd conservative power. Spain belong of group of historical challenging power like Ottoman, Germany, Carthage, Medes, Germany or Russia which have failed.It does not belong from the direct western lineage of dominant powers which have shaped western history thus the world" 100+ years of hegemony is a little bit too much for a challenger, don't you think so?. Tercio

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french stratege RE:French Stratege 9/21/2004 11:14:47 AM

Art (music or writing and painting) does not define a cultural model by their own: it is science and philosophie, institutional and economic models and idea which matter. Rome was able to crush and deter its opponents for a good time, not Spain.A challenger which deserve respect but not in the direct western lineage.

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Tercio RE:French Stratege 9/21/2004 11:53:52 AM

"A challenger which deserve respect but not in the direct western lineage" If I recall correctly, the whole idea of the Peace of Westfalia and later Utretch was "to avoid the re-edition in Europe of the hegemony of Spanish Habsbourgs". It looks like the leaders of England, France, Sweden... at that time considered Spain not as a challenger but as the former champion... Tercio

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french stratege Tercio 9/21/2004 12:42:18 PM

A military champion only by a weak margin considering results . On a military point of view tercio were very good. The problem is today heritage for western civilisation: economic principles, new organisations a part military, influences on law and governance rules, education, ideas, science, worldwide influence which remains (apart langage) .. To be the dominant power imply cultural and economic dominance to let your print on western civilisation and history. In 16th century progress in ideas came from northern Italy, Nederland, France and England. (Even if you would maybe consider Nederland as a part of Habsbourg empire).

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AlbanyRifles RE:Tercio 9/21/2004 1:22:33 PM

That's okay, FS thinks you guys were a third rate power since you didn't have the Leclerc tank or the Charles de Gaulle as part of the Spanish Armada.

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Heorot RE:Tercio 9/21/2004 5:35:22 PM

"(Even if you would maybe consider Nederland as a part of Habsbourg empire)." The Golden days of the Dutch was under the regime of the United Provinces; a state independant from the Hapsburgs. Are there no Dutch defenders of their nation here?

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