Most Influential Battle in History?!

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Okoshka RE:Ilpars - Scholar 9/10/2004 5:16:29 AM

At the time of Battle of Vienna the Ottoman empire already started to weaken. Not we christians stopped them, but they stopped themselves. Their empire was really strong at the time of the first ten Sultans. The last great of them was II.Suleyman (The Great) who died at the siege of Szigetvar. After him untalented Sultans came, the Ottoman army became more and more out of date, the balance between spahis and janitsars turn over, no military reforms, internal problems. Comparing to the Battle of Vienna the batle for Belgrade in 1456, and the battle at Mohacs were far more important. In 1456 at Belgrade (At that time called to Nandorfehervar, bordertown of Hungary.) the Ottoman army was defeated so heavily they couldn't advance in the next 70 years in Europe. The victory was so great the Pope (III.Calixtus)ordered: As long as the world exists in all churches have to ring the bells every noon. So when you hear the bells at noon it is not because it's noon, but it's a reminder to the victory of the Christian weapons over the Moslim hordes! We Hungarians alone blocked nearly for a century the Muslim advance towards Europe, but in 1526 mostly because from our mistake we lost a battle at Mohacs. The great luck of Vienna was that after the siege of Szigetvar where the last great Sultan died they were never able to punch as heavy as before. About Ilpars: Isn't it possibile he is chasing the girls on the Turkish Riviera?

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wjr RE:Manzikert 9/10/2004 1:32:41 PM

Boris, what do you cite as your backing for these data? Runciman and Ostrogorsky very much disagree with your observation. To quote Ostrogorsky (pp 344, History of the Byzantine State: "Romanus IV Diogenes (1068-71) was an experienced and brave commander... He took at once took up the struggle against the Seljuqs, but the disintegration had gone too far, ... With great a effort Romanus got together an army consisting mainly of foreign mercenaries ... At the Armenain town of Mantzikert in the neighborhood of Lake Van, the numericalcally superior, but heterogenous and undisciplined, Byzantine army was annihilated by the forces of Alp Arslan ..." Both authors and all of the source Greek comment (of the time) that I have read indicate that this was the key disaster that exposed the rot within the empire and allowed the Turks into central Antolia. Best, wjr

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scholar RE:Ilpars - Scholar 9/10/2004 1:37:12 PM

"About Ilpars: Isn't it possibile he is chasing the girls on the Turkish Riviera?" I really hope so.

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scholar Charles Martel 9/10/2004 1:38:23 PM

Let's not forget the Battle of Tours!

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boris the romanian RE:Manzikert 9/11/2004 7:26:55 AM

"Boris, what do you cite as your backing for these data?" THE BYZANTINE WARS by John Haldon gives a pretty good account of all major Byzantine battles from the 5th to the 12th centuries AD. Check it out.

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Ander320 RE:Charles Martel 9/11/2004 10:34:15 AM

I would consider the battle on Toulouse 11 years before as the real stop of the muslim invasion on Western Europe. Toulouse, the Muslim army (Convert Spanish, Berber and arab) was going in a real invasion scale move for sure. At Tour Abd-er-Rahman seems to have avoid siege and aimed Tour as a razzia/plunder raid with MAYBE the idea of seizing Aquitaine. In 732, Aquitain christian prince (Eudes) was allied with a muslim Prince (Munuza) south of Pyrennee montain. Toghether they seem to seek mutual help to avoid falling in their respective respective ennmy sphere. Munuza want to avoid falling on Courdoue influence and Eudes seek to avoid falling under the frank influence. Munuza was crush by Abd-er-Rahman who follow in Aquitain so Eudes between two evil seek Charles Martel help. Muslim chroniques seem to consider the offensive toward Tour was mostly razzia and that the real expanse of Muslim conquest was stop at Toulouse 721. The also acknoledge heavy casualties at Tour but no real political consequence. So if they are to be trust the importance of Tour battle was not so big.

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Disgruntled Taxman Seige of Aleisa and the campain in Gaul 9/11/2004 6:23:40 PM

I belive the Seige of Aleisa and the Campain in Gaul is extremely influential. Alot of Roman culture spread because of this. However, there are so many battles that can tie each other for most important. Like Gaugamela showed the importance of Combined Arms, ect.

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Tercio RE:Salamina&Platea-densoflex 9/16/2004 3:20:12 AM

Hi densoflex. Sadly I have no idea about Ilpars. I haven't seen any post from him since several weeks ago, hope he's doing OK. Tercio

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jastayme3 RE:Most Influential Battle in History?! 9/16/2004 3:37:00 AM

Lepanto is most influential but it is there, for it turned the advantage in the direction of Europe for the next five hundred years Historians underate it because they note that the Turks built a fleet to replace it immiediatly. What most of them fail to note is that they couldn't man it because most of their naval personal were dead. Lepanto was effectivly a battle of annhilation and the Ottoman Empire was reduced to a cripple on the high seas. The results were tremendous. The Christians never followed it up in the Med, but they could have. In the meantime the Portuguese could not have built their empire so easily had the Ottomans been capable of providing resistance. If Lepanto had gone the other way trade in the Med would have been under Ottoman control, aswould be the North shore of the Med

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densoflex Tercio, Jastayme 9/16/2004 5:11:51 AM

Interesting views on Lepanto, Jastayme. I wish we have Ilpars's opinion on the battle... Tercio, I have just finished Captain Alastriste's volume 2. It's very well written and the French translation is excellent. The stories themselves are ok but aren't the most important features of the novels. What's really great is to be so brilliantly immersed into 17th Century Spain, in the last decades of Spain's Golden Century. A nice way to learn and understand history. On a different note, I also read during the holidays Mario Varga Llosa's 'Feat of the Goat' which is about Trujillo's last days in the Domenican Rep. Have you tried this one? Awful. Ciao, Densoflex

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