Most Influential Battle in History?!

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densoflex RE:Most Influential Battle in History?! 9/9/2004 11:32:35 AM

Your suggestion of Marne 1914 is a good one because it saved Paris and thus France and thus the Entente Cordiale powers. Therefore it has to be considerered as one of the most influential modern battles. Gettysburg: I'm unsure that its impact on ACW was so influential. Lee was beaten, but retreated in good order and it took two more years to put the rebellion down. And had Lee won Gettysburg, I doubt he could have won the war. Stalingrad: perhaps, but my impression is that one of the most influential battles of WW2 was Midway. Let me suggest as some additional contenders the Têt offensive of 68, Marengo 1800, Malplaquet 1709. Densoflex

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mike_golf RE:Most Influential Battle in History?! 9/9/2004 11:38:06 AM

I'd suggest that the Battle of Yorktown in the American Revolution was incredibly influential. Not so much for its impact on military affairs, but because it enabled the American colonies to break free of England. It is mostly symbolic, the reality was that the Crown was probably not going to be able to keep the colonies by that point. But, the establishment of the United States is an extremely significant event in modern history. You can argue that it is one of the events that marks the transition to the Modern Era.

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Tercio Salamina&Platea 9/9/2004 12:04:47 PM

Here my choice: Salamina&Platea. These two battles marked the survival of the Greek city states vs the Persian threat. Had the Persians defeated the Greeks and nothing would have been the same..., no Greek philosophy, no Democracy, no Greek theater, no Greek colonization of the Mediterranean (particulary no Greek colonization of Italy, bye, bye, Rome), no Alexander... Tercio PS: Btw, densoflex, nice to have you around again.

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densoflex RE:Salamina&Platea 9/9/2004 12:55:39 PM

Thanks Tercio, good to see that you are also still around, straightening facts with your usual patience... BTW, what happened to Ilpars? He still owe us a second part on Atatürk's life!

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Nasty German Idiot RE:Salamina&Platea 9/9/2004 2:04:05 PM

The Battle for Vienna, where an Alliance of Germany, Poland and Austria fought back the Turk invasion of Europe.

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scholar denso 9/9/2004 2:13:15 PM

Ilpars has vanished. A pity, for he brought more to this site than most: a fascinating perspective and loads of knowledge. I suspect he had enough abuse from some of my less tactful compatriots.

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boris the romanian RE:denso 9/9/2004 9:02:33 PM

Battle of Campus Mauracius, AD451. Imagine if Aetius lost... Also, Arminius' victory in the Teutoburger Wald, AD9 is up there. If Varus won, Rome would have pushed the frontier to the Weser instead of the Rhine. Imagine the historical implications of a "Romanised" Germany.

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wjr RE:Most Influential..... 9/9/2004 10:34:17 PM

mike_golf and Nasty are more on top of this than the other suggestions, I suspect. Looking at this from a Western Civilization point of view, the two great extended conflicts really are the Persian problem for the Greeks and the Islamic problem since the late middle ages. Manzikert, the battle that broke the theme system in Byzantium and allowed the Turkic people into Asia Minor is a big one (and may be the last real inflection point victory for Islam) while Tours and the Battle of Vienna stopped (respectively) the Arab and Turk advance and, thus Islamizaion of the West. Also, don't forget Lepanto. The Venetians were a real piece of work (the Doges must have been the model for organized crime bosses) but they did a great service for the rest of the West in killing Islamic sea power. Interesting, isn't it, how Muslim influence has opposed Westernism down through the ages? Best, wjr

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boris the romanian Manzikert 9/10/2004 12:22:58 AM

"Manzikert, the battle that broke the theme system in Byzantium and allowed the Turkic people into Asia Minor is a big one (and may be the last real inflection point victory for Islam) " Manzikert did NOT break the back of the Byzantine army, contrary to popular belief. Apart from the loss of the baggage train the Byzantine losses were relatively light. The political significance of the battle is far more important than it's military significance. It very thoroughtly undermined the reputation of Romanus Diogenes and eventually allowed Alexius Comnenus to ascend as basileus. And for those who think the Byzantine Army was nothing after Manzikert, I'd just like to point out that Alexius opposed Robert de Guiscard at Dyrrachium (ten years after Manzikert, 1081) with a very well trained and equipped force, consisting of both the tagmata of Constantinople and various "thematic" (Byzantine equivalent of late-Roman "limitanei") units. Manzikert did NOT break the thematic system, nor was it the battle that permitted Turkish settlement of Asia Minor, this was already quite well established at the time and the battle of Manzikert merely allowed the Turks to consolidate in the absence of determined Imperial opposition (courtesy of the ineffectuality of Romanus Diogenes). The Byzantine army only began to "crumble" after the battle of Myriokephalon and in the immediate aftermath of the death of emperor Manuel I, around one hundred years later. PuckaMan, feel free to jump in if I've left anything out.

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densoflex Ilpars - Scholar 9/10/2004 4:39:57 AM

I agree with you, Scholar. Ilpars put up a brave fight on the Iraq board, but he was almost alone against this site's less 'tactful' (as you say)posters. We definitely miss you Ilpars. Hopefully you'll be back soon. Densoflex

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