The New Zealand Military is so bad for it's GDP

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southern cross RE:The New Zealand Military is so bad for it's GDP 7/28/2004 2:14:45 AM

actually 2 of its frigates are less than 5 years old ANZAC class (built in aust), but the third (HMNZS Canterbury)is an aged leander class was resently declared in too bad a condition to continue service, after only being fixed after a fire left it inoperable. This leaves the NZ navy with a severe training problem as it used the canterbury to train new recruits. The army, skilled soldiers but a man can be no better than his tools and support from other areas, which unfortunatly for NZ have old equipment, most ex-australian vietnam era. The Air force has no fighter aircraft (its last ones were ex RAN skyhawks), its P-3 are old aussie ones (aust still use them but improved model), its hercules are the older types. the NZ navy has announced a few new ships (most minor units) built in, you geussed it, australia. but its just a case of 1 step forward and 3 steps back. I feel sorry for the NZDF guys, they are being left stranded by the NZ government and people, but it doesnt stop them continuing some great work helping out around the pacific and other global areas.

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wagner95696 RE:The New Zealand Military is so bad for it's GDP 8/19/2004 6:53:18 PM

Might not be a bad strategy for New Zealand. It is a small sparsely populated without a great industrial base and limited funds. Except for fisheries or some timber it does not have any highly valuable resources to attract interest.It is also the world's most geographically isolated country. Given that any country interested and capable of mounting an invasion over the great distance involved would ionevitably so far surpass NZ in forces or resources that resistance would be futile anyway. NZ has simply chosen to depend on the charity of its friends [allies] and let them carry the burden. Any opponent with the naval forces t

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scooter RE:The New Zealand Military is so bad for it's GDP 8/19/2004 8:13:46 PM

I agree, there was a big stink when the last of the scooters left, however, We would come to their defence with F-18 and PIGs anyway. All they really need to do is upgrade Orion and use it for maritime strike with Harpoons.

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Aussiegunner RE:The New Zealand Military is so bad for it's GDP 8/22/2004 2:02:24 AM

"All they really need to do is upgrade Orion and use it for maritime strike with Harpoons." Apparently there is a project for ASM's to be bought for the Orions, with Harpoons being the most likely canditate I'd say. With that capability, only a carrier-equipped power could send surface forces to NZ. Submarines remain a big threat though, especially for NZ merchant shipping into North Asia or the Middle East in the event of a major war. North Asia is New Zealand's largest area for export and the Mid-East is its largest growing, so they can't afford not to be able to protect their ships enroute. I hope the Nationals get in during the next election, and upgrade NZ's largely obsolete ASW capability.

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french stratege NZ has simply chosen to depend on the charity of its friends [allies] and let them carry the burden 8/22/2004 12:55:54 PM

NZ is not that bad as it could not afford a minimal force with 4 million population to defend it self initially and contribute to ally effort in rewarding their support and commitment to de fense.At least they should have the equivalent of a division with an armored brigade, a fighter wing, and few ASW ship and subs, and a troop transport even second hand.It is within their capacities even below 2,5% of PNB.

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french stratege The swizz were selling F5E at at bargain price 8/22/2004 12:58:34 PM

They could have bought few.Us have bought them.

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Aussiegunner French Strategy 8/22/2004 9:37:49 PM

There is an element of that, in the hostility of the NZ government towards defence spending. I don't know how many times I have heard New Zealander's saying "anybody who invades us has to come through Australia, so they can look after us". It is shamefull There is also an element that don't think there is any threat that justifies NZ having a defence force. It is my belief that this is because public debate about defence spending always focusses on the risk of invasion, with New Zealand having virtually none. A more informed debate would identify other risks to New Zealand's national interest and to the safety of its citizens. Examples of how this might happen include a breakdown in civil order in the Ppacific Islands. This would be detrimental to New Zealand, due to a large buisiness investment in the region and the risk of organised crime and terrorism basing itself there. Also, a maritime war in North Asia or the Middle-East would put New Zealand's ships at risk of attack, killing its citizens and damaging its economy. Therefore, I agree that NZ should boost its defence force, but don't see armoured divisions and fighter wings as the best way to do it. NZ needs to go back to a 4 frigate navy, to provide ASW escort for its maritime vessels. It also needs to modernise its ASW aircraft and the systems on its ships. It needs to be able to enforce, not just keep peace in the pacific. That said, some recent equipment decisions are goodI have to say that Project Protector, which involves buying a bunch of patrol vessels for EEZ protection and a Multi-Role vessel for patrol, troop transport and icebreaking, is a good move. It means that the navies two modern frigates are freed up from fisheries patrol, for escort missions overseas. The troop transport capability will aid its ability to enforce peace in the Pacific. As for support for the infantry, they have recently acquired a large number of modern wheeled APC's and other vehicles, which should be useful for peace enforcement work. I would like to see them get a small tracked component though, to improve deployability. Armed helecopters are also a possiblity and are really needed for peace enforcement. So, I agree that they could do more, but recognise that if they aren't going to, they have it 75% right with their current re-equipment program. Beef up the ASW capabilities and add a few minor capabilities to the army, and they will be getting closer to 100%.

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beersheba RE:French Strategy 8/23/2004 12:29:16 AM

Actually Aussie, with you comments on a tracked component, should the Kiwis get their 20-odd Scorpions out of mothballs or invest in one of those Stingray variants the US has built. Maybe the sight of some ex-Aussie Leos rumbling though Auckland would help!!

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southern cross kiwi mind pisses me off 8/23/2004 2:25:41 AM

they think we will be theur saviour, well i would be okay with that as long as they are willing to do their bit too, which it seems they are not, so we should tell any potential enemy to go after them, and we may help just to get them thinking that maybe being lazy and pissing off your much more powerful freinds is not the best idea.

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Aussiegunner RE:kiwi mind pisses me off 8/23/2004 10:02:21 AM

Agreed, What it will take, is for us not to be able to fit their ships into a convoy during a war in North Asia or the Mid East, with a sunk NZ merchant ship, lots of dead Kiwi sailors and a severely NZ damaged economy the result. Unfortunatly that is the only way to get this lot to pull their fingers out of their arses, and put them into their wallets.

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wagner95696 RE:The New Zealand Military is so bad for it's GDP 8/24/2004 11:49:40 PM

No one can protect their ships enroute, departure to arrival. All than can be expected is protect an area far enough afield so that departing and arriving merchantmen have room to mavoever and vary their courses so attackers can not predict their routes.

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fall out RE:kiwi mind pisses me off 8/25/2004 5:35:33 AM

Hear, Hear!! We should hold them ransom and force them all to play Aussie Rules!! ;)

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Aussiegunner RE:kiwi mind pisses me off 8/25/2004 9:42:32 AM

"...and force them all to play Aussie Rules!!" I think NSW, NZ and Qld should hold Victoria to ransom and force them to play Rugby Union;-)

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Aussiegunner RE:The New Zealand Military is so bad for it's GDP - wagner95696 8/25/2004 9:43:36 AM

Irrespective of the tactics associated with convoy protection, I think it is fair to say that 4 frigates would do a better job of it than 2.

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southern cross RE:The kiwi mind pisses me off-AG 8/26/2004 2:16:58 AM

"I think NSW, NZ and Qld should hold Victoria to ransom and force them to play Rugby Union;-)" as long as it is union i would be all for it

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