Regarding Scuds and the Patriot Anti-missile system

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nakito RE:Regarding Scuds and the Patriot Anti-missile system 8/5/2002 9:15:05 AM

Apparently the Patriots were given inercept algorithims for SCUDs. Iraq was using modified SCUD (Al H.....) with slightly different ballistics thus the Patriots were detonating behind the missiles. PAC-3 is supposed to have limited ABM capability. I'd imagine the only systems superior are S-300/400 and the Arrow I/II.

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bsl RE:Regarding Scuds and the Patriot Anti-missile system 8/5/2002 9:47:18 PM

The final Bomb Damage Assessments done on the attempted intercepts admitted that there were **no** successful intercepts of Scuds aimed at Israel. I don't know what the conclusions were with respect to Saudi Arabia. There have been upgrades of the system since then; some of them said to have been designed to increase the capability to hit Scuds. How effective they are I can't say.

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mustavaris RE:Regarding Scuds and the Patriot Anti-missile system 8/5/2002 11:42:30 PM

None of the Patriots launched in Gulf War did destroy the Scuds and the best they did was that they knocked those missiles off from their way to their targets (that�s why there wasnt any succesful intercepts). Those modified Scuds already had huge CEP hit desert for almost 100% sure after such impact- as far as I remember over 70% of Patriots never came close to Scuds and that�s why many missiles were launched at one time against one Scud. Some time ago Russians scored the first kill with anti-ballistic missile when they managed to destroy Scud with S-300V�s missile. I don�t know if Arrow can do that but at least it much be far more accurate than Patriot and then more probable to knock the missile off its trajectory. In any case Saddam doesnt have many missiles/launchers left and the worst that can happen from my point of view is that he might use VX or other nerve gas against American troops- Israeli response to chem attack would be far more lethal than US�s. Although you can expect that a rat in a dead end will bite as hard as it cans anyone who is close enough.

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nakito RE:Regarding Scuds and the Patriot Anti-missile system 8/6/2002 8:38:09 AM

with the proper ballistic solutions the Patriot could have intercepted a SCUD unfortunately it was given the solutions for a nearly-like missile which had different ballistic qualities. PAC-3, I would hope, is much improved.

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mustavaris RE:Regarding Scuds and the Patriot Anti-missile system 8/6/2002 12:44:28 PM

It must be remembered that even the direct hit by Patriot missile isnt enough to fuse Scud�s warhead (and destroy it). It still only knocks the missile off the trajectory. S-300V was the first one to do that. Probably PAC-3 could be better than Patriot if they can get those problems solved.

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Night Stalker RE:Regarding Scuds and the Patriot Anti-missile system 8/6/2002 8:19:12 PM

So, in generally, the Scuds were knocked off trajectory, but is that enough to (apparently) cause them to break up? Or, in general, did the Scuds simply fail as a weapon? Enlighten me.

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mustavaris RE:Regarding Scuds and the Patriot Anti-missile system 8/6/2002 11:47:36 PM

Patriot wasnt enough to break a Scud (they didnt make the warhead to explode) but it made them miss their targets. Scud is not an accurate weapon and with conventional warhead the only reasonable targets are wide area targets and after being hit by Patriot they probably miss their target. It must be remembered that Scud is an old design and the reason for its use is that it is simple and (relatively) cheap and your enemy will have great difficulties to protect himself- not very reliable nor accurate weapon but an easy way to threat your enemy especially if you have (or you are thought to have) non-conventional warheads for your missiles. CEP of Scud (the radius of area where 50% of missiles hit) can be well over a mile. So you can imagine that its only useful as a terror weapon or with non-conventional warhead. Modernized Scud variants tend to have longer range but improving the accuracy seems to be harder. At the best CEP is still counted hundreds of meters and it isnt a precision weapon then either.

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ben RE:Regarding Scuds and the Patriot Anti-missile system 8/19/2002 4:23:27 PM

When I was serving in the gulf,my platoon did manage to knock down a scud with a 66mm rocket launcher. We were recce the launcher for an attack,when a scud was launched,my 2i/c launched the 66' at it a few seconds after launch,with a direct hit to the scuds side, and the mutherer went crazy and crashed about a mile to our south,the scud warhead must have detonated because the shockwave knocked us on our asses.

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ben RE:Regarding Scuds and the Patriot Anti-missile system 8/19/2002 4:27:14 PM

One time a pac-3 wouldnt launch,so we shoved a small amount of pe-3 explosive in it's booster,and detonated it to get the missile launched. It worked and the missile intercepted a soviet tu-95 carrying a nuclear payload to an american forward staging base. We all recieved military medals and medals of honor.

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Horthy RE:Regarding Scuds and the Patriot Anti-missile system 8/21/2002 7:37:51 AM

Yes, that reminds me of the time a Russian spyplane (a Bear-D) was shadowing our carrier group. I grabbed the nose of the Standard missile on the launch rail and let my cruiser fire it at the Bear. At the last moment I jumped from the missile to the aircraft, climbed in, took the crew prisoner and landed the plane on the USS John F. Kennedy. Any more realistic war stories, gentlemen?

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macawman RE:Regarding Scuds and the Patriot Anti-missile system 8/21/2002 1:42:54 PM

Saddam is believed to have had aproximately 12 launchers left at the end of the war according to defectors and Frontline. No Iraqi SCUD launchers were destroyed by air/ground interdiction. No matter how ineffective the PAC 1s performance was they did keep Israel out of the war. This was their best and most worthy achievement.

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Horthy RE:Regarding Scuds and the Patriot Anti-missile system 8/22/2002 1:57:27 AM

Actually, I believe it was 19 launchers, just read that in Adrian Weale's "Secret Warfare". He also agrees that none were destroyed either by SAS/Delta or by airstrikes. An interesting opinion of his, which I tend to second, is that what kept Israel out of the war was not any weapon system but their own pragmatism. What would they gain by dissolving the coalition by entering the war? After all that would only help their enemies, the Iraqis. Things would have looked different with a WMD attack, but as it was, I think they were content with getting the choice of a few targets for the USAF to destroy.

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macawman RE:Regarding Scuds and the Patriot Anti-missile system 9/1/2002 5:10:37 PM

Good point. Early on the Israelis could see that the Pac 1s were not stopping anything and they still stayed out it.

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bsl RE:Regarding Scuds and the Patriot Anti-missile system 9/2/2002 7:46:22 PM

Macawman, "the PAC 1s performance was they did keep Israel out of the war." The real story is somewhere between "sorta" and "not really". The missiles were aimed at and landing in Israel. A very small country whose military is it's adult male population. IOW, nothing concerning the Scuds was really secret. Everyone knew pretty well what was going on. It was really mostly Americans who were fooled into thinking the Patriots were effective. Israelis knew different. The reason there was no retaliation was extremely heavy American pressure combined with the fact that the Scuds did very little damage. And, as it was, the issue was very close. It won't be duplicated. Expect retaliation for any attack. Extremely heavy retaliation for anything remotely resembling WMD. Israel lost a lot of credibility by not shooting back last time and there's a school of thought which blames that inaction for the present state of affairs. There's a different government in power in Israel. Also, a different government in power in America. James Baker is no longer in government.

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macawman RE:Regarding Scuds and the Patriot Anti-missile system 9/3/2002 12:04:22 AM

Does any know if those 12 to 19 Iraqi mod SCUDs launchers were destroyed by the WMD teams sent to Iraq by the UN? I saw TV film of missile frames being crushed but no transporter erector launchers (TEls). The Iraqi SCUDS were modified by their "technical advisers" for greater range and payload. A first generation SCUD A had a typical range of 300 km. The Iraqi SCUDs were a 3 to 2 conversion modification with the added sections welded on to make a longer more fuel and payload capable ballistic missile. This conversion required a special modified TEL longer and heavier than the Soviet SCUD A mobile launcher. What this SCUD conversion gained in range it lost in accuracy. It was strictly a "City Buster" with a cep. of app. 5 miles. Israel and any neighboring countries who side with us on this pending Iraqi invasion have good reason to be concerned about C & BW SCUD warheads for Saddam knows his chance of survival is very slim.

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