Top Ten Armies of the World

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title Sort in Reverse Order Posted

Pages: PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 NEXT

IAFbestinworld RE:Israel 6/13/2004 9:10:18 PM

"France spend only 0,8%of GNP in military procurement and is air force is on the same category than Israel.Our aerospace industry civilian and military , have one fourth the capcity of US!And dedicated to civilian for 80%." -ISRAEL IS SMALLER THAN THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY!!! Not to mention a population of 6 million. The real question is, if israel was the size of france, how much better would israel's military be than france's? And dont give me the "france will fight when it has to" You guys did a great job in WW2.

Quote Reply

TOXICITIE 2 RE:IAFbestintheworld 6/13/2004 9:16:49 PM

Don't go change geography man, the only reason you have a good military is because of your geagraphy. Also France on paper would own Israel... In a total war that is.

Quote Reply

Goths RE:IAFbestintheworld 6/14/2004 12:41:00 AM

on paper the arabs should of own israel to look at what happen there

Quote Reply

IAFbestinworld RE:IAFbestintheworld 6/14/2004 2:15:12 AM

On paper Israel should not exist today. However, wars are not fought on paper. The french are anti-american wussies. The french would not have the you know whats to ever get in a fight with Israel.

Quote Reply

Alexis RE:Top Ten Armies of the World 6/14/2004 9:50:46 AM

<<>> One of the problems with such a tally is that said factors cannot be "added" to one another. How do you measure the respective importance, say, of manpower and training ? Or of technology and resources ? By the way, is this respective importance ALWAYS the same, on every kind of terrain, in every circumstance, against any kind of foe ? Another one is that war is - prepare for a scoop - a ***human*** activity, which means that morale and support from the civilian population are factors ... very unstable factors at that ! Who is agressor, who was attacked ? Whose territory does fighting occur upon ? All this and more will crucially impact the performance of armies. Not to forget the quality of leaders, that absolute intangible. To use but one example, Russia inflicted a severe lesson on Japan who had attacked her in the East in 1939, then encountered enormous difficulties battling small Finland in 1940, which gave way to a series of catastrophic defeats in 1941 against the invading Wehrmacht, followed by a last-minute successful counter-offensive to defend Moscow in December 1941 ... and so on. All things considered, the game of "who has the biggest di... I mean army" remains an interesting one. A few things ***really*** surprise me in the list proposed : 1) China is second only to the US !!!!! But China has close to none power projection ability. How could she be compared to Britain, or France, not to speak of Russia ? If one wants to say China is powerful because she is virtually impossible to occupy entirely, fine, but then a nation like Brazil should be in the list too. 2) Israel is ninth, behind Italy ! But Israel has a numerous, trained and well-armed army, plus a nuclear deterrent. Italy has nothing of the sort. 3) UK is behind France, and France behind Germany. I would argue exactly the opposite is true : French armed forces presently suffer from a lack of training, which is not true about UK, while German armed forces are smaller and less trained than both French and British ones 4) Russia is sixth Yes, Russian armed forces are in disarray, and the shadow of what they were fifteen years ago. But Russia remains the only country that would be able to sink at least one (more probably several) US aircraft carriers, it is in command of a large nuclear deterrent, has a long range bomber force even with limited size (Tu160 Blackjack), a few weapon systems unparalleled anywhere else in the world (Mig31 interceptor, Shkval torpedo, supersonic antiship missiles) and its polity has a proven capability to sustain a bloody limited war (Chechnya) ... I do not give too much trust to this evaluation, no matter which "Intelligence Services" presumably prepared it ...

Quote Reply

Alexis RE:Israel - french stratege 6/14/2004 9:53:06 AM

<<>> Thank you for your most interesting input on that topic, "Advocate Of REason". We will call you.

Quote Reply

Alexis RE:Top Ten Armies of the World - According to StrategyPage 6/14/2004 10:03:07 AM

<<>> That list is just as dubious as the one originating this thread : 1) China is STILL several places before Russia ! Which is a nonsense, as explained in response to the original post. 2) Israel is BEFORE Russia ! Placing Israel ninth behind Italy was not credible, placing her third only to USA and China is just as incredible. 3) Both Koreas are BEFORE the UK ! Again a nonsense, especially for North Korea, as even a cursory look to equipment, training, projecting abilities or past military performance would suggest 4) Turkey is BEFORE both France and Germany ! One more nonsense, as even a quick look at available data will make clear.

Quote Reply

ilpars RE:Top Ten Armies of the World - According to StrategyPage - Alexis 6/14/2004 10:18:58 AM

"4) Turkey is BEFORE both France and Germany ! One more nonsense, as even a quick look at available data will make clear." It is not that nonsense. Combat power is calculated by Combat power = Numbers * Equipment Quality * Leadership The reasons given are "Turkey benefits from having a strong military tradition and excellent leadership at the small unit level, as well as good combat training." Yes, Turkey lacks the modern equipment and professional army but has advantages in numbers. And leadership is as good as french and German's. Let's say Turkey, France and Germany are so close at combat power that it is hard to decide which is better. China and India has so huge at advantage at numbers that it is hard to lower overall combat power of theirs with other bad modifiers. Real surprise is N. Korea and Pakistan for me.

Quote Reply

Alexis RE:Top Ten Armies of the World- Warhammer 6/14/2004 10:27:12 AM

In your description of what a (VERY hypothetical) US vs European coalition, or even US vs ROW would like, you forget significant factors : - Advanced weaponry like laser- or GPS-guided bombs are effective, but they are few in numbers, and cruise missiles are even less. The US had to improve production of several of these weapons during several months before their invasion of a third or fourth rate power like Iraq. How many plants and other assets could the US destroy in air attacks against a hypothetical coalition of countries like France / Germany / Russia before running out of ammunition ? - Except for long range bombers based in America, US forces would project power mainly from their aircraft carriers, as you explained. Have you looked at the vulnerability of those against Oscar-II type submarines (Russia owns about ten) ? What about their vulnerability to fighter attack ? You certainly do not expect their defenses to be impenetrable, do you ? - About long range bombers, remind that B2 bombers are few, while B1s and B52s are essentially unproven against real air defense systems. Remind too that the B2 is NOT impossible to detect and track - Finally, you seem to forget how easy it is to put heavy atomic mass materials to use. If nukes enter the equation, and they certainly would in case of US strategic air attack against economic centers in Europe (French or Russian ones, take your pick), then a salvo of supersonic ASMP or their Russian equivalent would be more than enough to take care of a US aircraft carrier. The same would apply to any nation foolish enough to believe US nuclear protection pledges and allow US fighter to operate from its territory. How could a F15 or F18 go from North America to Europe ? - And ultimately, all of these wild ideas of US "Und morgen die Welt" conquest are based on forgetting that several nations in this world, two of them in Europe (Russia and France) could bring the Dagon Temple - err I mean the US - down in flames with them if they were pushed to despair by US attacks. Israel is not the only nation who has a "Samson Option".

Quote Reply

Alexis RE:Top Ten Armies of the World - According to StrategyPage - Ilpars 6/14/2004 10:42:37 AM

"Combat power is calculated by Combat power = Numbers * Equipment Quality * Leadership " That kind of fixed formulas for calculating "combat power" is very strange for such a variable field as war is. Even more so since it includes one quite debatable factor "Equipment Quality" and one really invaluable one "Leadership". Even using that formula, and leaving aside the impredictible "Leadership" factor, it is hard to understand how Turkey could be placed above, or even near, France or Germany. Turkey cannot compete with one of these countries for air power, to speak nothing of naval power. Its tanks are not a match either to Leclercs or to Leopard IIs. It has no satellite reco ability. How could it offset such disadvantages with a - limited - advantage in numbers I do not understand. And of course I will not speak of nuclear weapons. China and India being before Russia is just a consequence of that limited formula used for calculating combat power. To speak of a precise case, Russia would obviously not be able to occupy a large chunk of China for a long time because of guerrilla, but China would not be able to conquer a large chunk of Russia before having her ass handed to her big time.

Quote Reply

french stratege Alexis - According to StrategyPage - Ilpars 6/14/2004 11:04:29 AM

Very good introduction in this forum.I would add few things: For french army training is below UK only for a part of ground troops which are also 50% more numerous.Training have improved a lot in the last two years.For air force in navy it is almost the same for front line units. People in their power equation forgot all force multipliers: France for example invest one fourth of its procurement in that.How much for Turquey.? France have invest the last years 3 billion $ in transmission and mission preparation equipement, have 7AWACS(E2/E3), reco and transmission satellite, data networking, orchide helicopters and SLAR.How much for Turquey or ROK? Quality matter also: 400 Leclerc are equivalent of 800 Leopard2A4 (but not A6) and Turquey have M60.Also a country like France in the case of a war can increase its inventory of 50% in 6 month. Examples: leclerc factory can today produce 400 tank a year! SNECMA engine: 60 military engines M53 or M88 /month!And can scale up more a lot mobilizing civil assets.We can replace our losses in near real time (few months) , who can do that except US, Russia, Japan, China and UK? We have 500 generals in the army (too much) , however we can find very good leaders among them. Alexis which nationality are you?

Quote Reply

ilpars RE:Turkish military power - Alexis 6/14/2004 11:10:21 AM

Air Power: Turkey has a strong and well trained air forces. One of the finest in NATO. We had F-16's. German and French aircrafts are slightly better but F-16 is very versatile. Satellite recon: It is not quite known but thanks to France, Turkey has satellite recon capability. Tank forces: Turkish tanks are significially outclassed by European ones, but still has the great numerical superiority in Tanks. Turkey has planned to buy 1000 new tanks but as there is no significant urgent need for modern tanks (none of our neighbors has them) postponed the purchase so far. Light infantry: Turkey do not have an unit as elite as Jagers but have 4 commando brigades and 2 paratrooper brigades very experienced in counter-insurgency warfare. Turkish army has much more experience in counter-insurgency warfare than any other NATO force. Naval power: Turkey has 16 conventional submarines, and many surface craft which could be a nasty experience for any enemy. Projection capability. In several manuevers, across border operations at N. Iraq in several years ago and its concentration of forces at syrian border few years ago Turkey showed quite a capability to project force. I am not saying that Turkish army has better combaat power than France and Germany. I am saying that we are so close that it is hard to decide which has better.

Quote Reply

french stratege RE:Turkish military power - Alexis 6/14/2004 11:22:13 AM

"Turkish army has much more experience in counter-insurgency warfare than any other NATO force"Our young officers who fought in Algeria and other counterinsurgency war like chad in 68, are senior officer in French army now.And we have made much more operation since than turquey even on a more limited scale.Turquey force multiplier are weak and they don't have any usable reco satellite (I mean with resolution under 1 meter and associated tools to exploit data).However I rank turquey in the best 15 forces in the world.However Greece is at the same level at least.

Quote Reply

Advocate Of REason RE:Israel - french stratege 6/14/2004 1:04:10 PM

hmmm. I wonder what the call will be about, I await it impatiently. I'll be sure to trace it.

Quote Reply

french stratege IAFbestinworld 6/14/2004 1:50:07 PM

It is funny that you critisize French for having lost in WW2 to advocate Israel is better.If I remember well Israel is populated with European jews and Arabs jews.Their grand parents were mass murdured passively by nazis with the exception of a little desperate resistance in warzaw guetto:not an example of overall courage. So if the French are not courageous because of their grand parents, Israel people should be less if we follow your logic! Sell your computer and buy a brain!

Quote Reply

Pages: PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 NEXT

	News As History - November 21, 2009
	Home News How to Make War Wars Around the World Austin Bay's On Point Dirty Little Secrets Features Al Nofi's CIC Prediction Market Wargames Measure of Respect On War and Warfare Videos Photos Jokes Community Military Discussion Boards Military Jokes Military Photos Military Book Reviews Military Movie Reviews Military Links Wargame Store StrategyPage Subscribe Login Feedback About Us Search Account Manager Advertise With Us