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Subject: Death Penalty for Treason
Trav44H    3/4/2004 3:51:07 PM
Here in the states we have a couple of guys about to go on trial for treason which could result in them facing the death penalty. How does this differ in other countries? For instance, how would a soldier from, ohhh I don't know, sayyy Spain or Finland be punished if they fragged a couple of officers with a grenade or shared vital information with the enemy on the weaknesses of a tank?
 
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RM-Nod    RE:Death Penalty for Treason   3/4/2004 4:05:40 PM
I agree with the death penalty for reasons that you stated. Over here in blighty (UK for those who don't speak brit) I think we still have the death penalty for treason but I'm not sure what defines treason. There has been alot of people (in the public) calling for Claire Short to hang for giving out secrets about who the UK spies on, personally I agree.
 
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Rule Britannia    RE:Death Penalty for Treason   3/4/2004 4:21:11 PM
The Death Penalty still stands in Great Britain on conviction of either; High Treason to the Crown or Piracy on the High Seas -Each of these is punishable by Death by Hanging. On Treason it is if you conspire against the Monarchy or Attempt to jeapordise the Soverignty and Freedom of the State, In military terms this would boil down to diliberatly revealing strategic secrets to the enemy and/or taking up arms against your own country (Killing fellow soldiers deliberatly to aid the enemy).
 
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RM-Nod    The Brits in Guantanimo - Rule   3/4/2004 4:38:42 PM
Rule, does this mean that if the 4 British citizens currently held in the US are returned and found guilty of aiding the taliban and/or al quaida (can never spell that :)) they could be hung?
 
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arab guy    Out here in Mid-east   3/4/2004 5:06:25 PM
In most of middle-east (saudi, qatar, uae....)if proven guilty of treason you're most likely to be given a death penalty. Here in qatar a few years ago some members of the royal family were executed and some were prisoned for life, for ploting against the current monarch and trying to coup his rule. Out here no one is spared.
 
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Worcester    RE:Definition of Treason   3/4/2004 5:52:27 PM
"Giving aid and comfort to the enemy". This sounds bland, but is is deceptively all encompassing, a real catch-all. In the US and I believe everywhere, Treason is a capital offense. The interpretation of case law was that treason could only occur during war time (there neede to be an enemy) but the case law modifies this in the 1950's when we executed the Rosenbergs for giving atom bomb information to the Soviets. The last Brit treason case was James Joyce, "Lord Haw Haw" who broadcast Nazi Propaganda against Britain. Although an Irish Citizen he also held a UK Passport and was hanged in 1945. As the law stands here (and everywhere), a citizen enlisting in a foreign army is prima facie guilty of treason; a citizen actually taking up arms in a foreign cause against his country of citizenship is de facto treason. That goes for all the guys in Guantanamo bay. I've always liked the UK distinction between High Treason and Treason; the latter is "aid and comfort to the enemy"; the former includes an attack on the Royals including interfering with the succession such as "knowing" the Princess of Wales in a biblical sense if you get my drift. On that basis, Dodi Al-Fayed committed High Treason; perhaps the law was enforced? Back to reality. Treason - "aid and comfort" - is just one level; all martial law codes prescribe death for murder, mutiny, rape, looting. So, selling information to Al-Quaeda is "aid and comfort to the enemy" - clear treason - the electric chair. Fragging your officers is mutiny and murder - for which the punishment is death by shooting.
 
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Worcester    RE:Definition of Treason   3/4/2004 6:02:24 PM
Just to clarify: Treason is Civil Code in all states. Martial Law is an additional code; it is military law for soldiers and covered civilians in war time; pretty much death penalty for everything - especially mutiny, murder, rape, looting, deserting your post, cowardice in the face of the enemy, self-inflicted wounds (even sun burn) and refusing to return fire. Fragging your officers - yeah, death penalty.
 
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mustavaris    RE:Death Penalty for Treason   3/5/2004 12:47:05 AM
We do not have death penalty during peacetime as its considered to be uncivilized and has many, all too many technical/ethical problems, BUT during wartime it is used in several cases, high treason among them. Most of the excecutions here occured in lawless period during or after the civil war (1917-1918) and pretty few death penalties were given during WWII. During peacetime high treason is the only crime together with murder and high level spying from which one can get life-time imprisonment. As far as I know and also minimum sentences are pretty high when comparing to other punishmenst here. Cheers.
 
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Jack Tar    RE:Death Penalty for Treason   3/5/2004 4:01:41 AM
I believe there is still a death penalty for 'Arson in a Royal Naval dockyard', here in the UK. However, it would never be invoked. The last remaining Death penalties in the UK are more of a loophole than an inforced law. They still have some crazy throwbacks here like 'the Citizens of York are allowed to kill Scotsmen if they are found in the city after dark'.(or something like that!)
 
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Spent Case    RE:Death Penalty for Treason - Mustavaris   3/5/2004 6:35:33 AM
Wartime would seem to bring out an exception in almost any country. Look at Norway. Quisling was executed, despite there being no death penalty per se. Wasn't he tried under military court to get around this? SC-
 
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mustavaris    RE:Death Penalty for Treason - Mustavaris   3/5/2004 7:30:37 AM
Yep, wartime is exceptional time when exceptional measures are needed and those ethical/technical problems are much less remarkable then. "Wasn't he tried under military court to get around this?" The capital punishment was reintroduced to Norwegian system by the exile government to take care of the few high ranking people.. As far as I know there were 3 excecutions in total. I dont know whether is was military court or not, but the capital punishment was brought into use in the end of WWII and basically it was part of juridical system for a while. There is a difference when comparing to Finland; we have never given up capital punishment but its only restricted to wartime and only for few very serious crimes. This is mentioned in UN agreements we have done.
 
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mustavaris    RE:Death Penalty for Treason - Mustavaris   3/5/2004 7:40:06 AM
One more comment; I wrote that the numbers in Finland were small... Thats not entirely true, they were relatively low comparing to most countriese, but still in hundreds. The number of excecutions done here during wartime exceeds 500. But at the moment I cannot say how many of these occured in WWII and how much during the civil war though I am pretty sure that many of them happened during the civil war.. they tend to be dirtiest of all wars and ours wasnt an exception.
 
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Worcester    RE:Definition of Treason-Mustavaris   3/5/2004 2:16:14 PM
A lot of countries have "given up the death penalty" but arte then surprised to learn it still exists for Treason. Are you sure you don't still have it on the books? Treason not being restricted to wartime, but including subversion of the State.
 
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swhitebull    RE:The Brits in Guantanimo - Rule   3/7/2004 9:17:46 AM
..Any non-Americans, even those from American allied countries, are locked in Guantanamo Bay and are not given free trials. The Americans are breaking the Geneva Convention on Human Rights ... Pretty blanket statement. In what way are these people subject to the Geneva Protocols? Were they citizens of Afghanistan? Were they mercenaries? Were they fighting as formal members of a legally-defined political entity? Did they pick up weapons and start fighting? Please show specifically - rather than just mouthing GENEVA HUMAN RIGHTS - what specific articles of the Protocols the United States is violating, and in what way the detainees at Gitmo are subject to those articles. swhitebull - let's get accurate here, and know what you are talking about, before you talk about what you know.
 
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Divinewind    Treason Laws in the UK   3/18/2004 12:41:23 PM
In 1996 i think the law was changed on treason, up until then you could be hung for any form of treason. Now as rule stated it can only obtained for high treason and piracy. So i am unsure about the men held in camp delta, i doubt they would be charged under treason but rather terrorism as would be easier to prove and more politically viable.
 
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Divinewind    Blackleaf   3/18/2004 12:45:22 PM
I don't think people would be hanged at the tower, as the last prisoner at the tower was Ruduolph Hess it would be more likely to at HMP Bellmarsh (sp?) on something like that. Bellmarsh is the top high security prison in the UK where loads of Class A prisoners are held, most of them lifers and people on remand during high profile cases.
 
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