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Subject: Braking the Iranian military puzzle
Bluewings12    9/27/2009 4:33:33 PM
Imaginary scenario . let 's say that the USA , France , the UK and Israel want to use military strikes to try to destroy or slowdown the Iranian nuclear military program (if such exists) . What would be the best way to do it ? Who would do what , what with , etc . I think that a positive debate could see us ~posters~ coming with an half decent war plan . It is not about a pissing contest but about building a REALISTIC war operation against Iran 's actual and foreseen nuclear facilities and infrastructures . A USA , France , UK , Israel coalition could mount a 1 to 4 days bombimb campaign , that I am sure of . How would we do it ? Where from ? What with ? For how long ? Etc ... I have few ideas already , what are yours ? Cheers .
 
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Mikko    We the insiders?   9/30/2009 7:27:42 AM

When the President of France is outraged at the US for taking a weak non confrontational position over a serious issue one has to wonder which universe one inhabits and how does it differ from the old one?  So one has to sit and hope the President of France can prod the President of the US to take the issue seriously?  One hopes it's all part of the secret plan to good cop/bad cop Iran but one might be forgiven for doubting that happens in our universe either.

 

That's exactly what I hope is going on, and also my biggest fear is that it isn't. The Iran threat is so explicit that western powers have every reason to have an actual game plan. Playing soft, stupid and weak is a superb strategy if the only purpose is to make Iran lower its guard and underestimate western resolve.
 
There you have it: If you knew you were being hit any minute, wouldn't you be extra alert with all your defensive assets, passive or active? And if you were laughing your a** off on the chaos going on between your potential enemies, would you not get sloppy over time?
 
Whatever the case, it is a good thing that Iranian leaders are laughing. Let's make them laugh even more. Let's act so stupid, that the mullahs laugh so hard they have to come out to catch some breath so their enemies can put rounds through their heads.
 
Thus, so far I haven't seen anything done by Obama that couldn't be extremely smart. He might be piling up, he might know very well what he is doing. We, The Worried Couch Generals' Association, are behaving just as a smart government would have us behave.
 
But if this isn't the case, then things are really going downhill, big time. Anyway, my point is that so far only thing we know about Obama is that he isn't doing things in a hurry and unprepared.Whatever he's doing, we're not supposed to know because then the Iranians would know too.
 
Mikko
 
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warpig       9/30/2009 11:16:12 AM
Naturally, in an optimum world we would first reduce all the Iranian IADS to rubble before risking any bombers, but the real world is never optimal and furthermore BW wants to talk about a more limited campaign.  In this case, Iran's air defense network is so porous and so lame that there should not need to be a separate phase for gaining air superiority, if time is of the essence and limited strikes over a limited duration are mandated.
 
The initial strikes must target not only nuclear sites but also ballistic missile storage and launch sites.  While even several dozen missiles launched toward U.S. and allied military facilities ringing Iran will accomplish little military effect, the Iranians might try what Saddam tried--shooting at Israel in an attempt to goad them into retaliation.  Hopefully even if some missiles are lobbed Israel's way, their ballistic missile defense will get some, and we can convince the Israelis that the few that do hit them can be tolerated given that we're finally mopping up on Iran.  Disabling their few fixed launch sites for MRBMs would be pretty simple, but trying to catch a substantial number of their mobile SRBMs and even mobile cruise missile batteries (to protect Gulf shipping from anti-ship cruise missile attacks) would be quite a challenge.

While I'm all for decapitating the enemy in a war, in this case perhaps going after national command authorities and military leadership (mullahs, IRGC commanders) might be counterproductive.  Perhaps if we do not attack national level C2, they will see that we are not trying for regime change, and they won't feel threatened wnough to go all-out in retaliation.  Of course, if the roles were reversed, and my country's nuclear program was getting bombed, I'd want my country to declare war on the attackers no matter who they were, and go all-out in our counterattacks, but maybe that's just me....  Hmmm, on second thought, we might as well try to take out their ballistic missile and their Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps C4 while we're at it, since there's no way they're going to just roll over and take this pounding without fighting back, and the IRGC army, airforce, and navy are the ones most likely to engage in counterattacks.
 
 
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Bluewings12       9/30/2009 6:39:37 PM
Albywan , I don 't have time to respond to your post , I am very sorry . I will as soon as I have some time off .
We need to go into details .
 
sinoflex and smitty are spot on . This is also why Europe has to act first , to stop Israel to go alone and to a lesser extent to avoid the USA to get involved to soon , at least on the political chessboard (UN) .
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       9/30/2009 6:54:35 PM
LB :
""When the President of France is outraged at the US for taking a weak non confrontational position over a serious issue one has to wonder which universe one inhabits and how does it differ from the old one?""
 
I understand what you say LB . The fact that we change and switch role for a while is not disturbing in itself .
The main fact is do we know how many lives in the Middle-east are at risk if Iran gets Nuclear weapons ?
Hundred of millions , no less than that .
For the sake of the people (wherever they are from or live) , we need to stop the Iranians Mollahs and this foolish regime .
We 're not talking about Saddam here but about something faaar worse .
France can 't stay put , it would be like breaking the French Constitution .
 
Cheers .
 
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albywan       9/30/2009 7:56:04 PM

Albywan , I don 't have time to respond to your post , I am very sorry . I will as soon as I have some time off .

We need to go into details .


 

sinoflex and smitty are spot on . This is also why Europe has to act first , to stop Israel to go alone and to a lesser extent to avoid the USA to get involved to soon , at least on the political chessboard (UN) .


 

Cheers .



I agree with your sentiment here.
If anything, a Euro lead on this would present a greater "western" coalition than a US/Israeli lead action.
 
The key to a Euro lead initiative IMHO is to get countires such as Germany, Holland, Sweden and Russia on board.
 
The UN, again IMHO has let the Middle East down on too many occasions to warrant any real significance. The resolutions it passes are paper, worth as much as the perferated paper i use daily in a small cubicle.
 
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Beazz       9/30/2009 8:13:33 PM
Mikko    We the insiders?   9/30/2009 7:27:42 AM

When the President of France is outraged at the US for taking a weak non confrontational position over a serious issue one has to wonder which universe one inhabits and how does it differ from the old one?  So one has to sit and hope the President of France can prod the President of the US to take the issue seriously?  One hopes it's all part of the secret plan to good cop/bad cop Iran but one might be forgiven for doubting that happens in our universe either.

 

That's exactly what I hope is going on, and also my biggest fear is that it isn't. The Iran threat is so explicit that western powers have every reason to have an actual game plan. Playing soft, stupid and weak is a superb strategy if the only purpose is to make Iran lower its guard and underestimate western resolve.
 
Sorry Mikko, but this is no acting soft and weak. People here stateside who have been watching this clown Obama know it. The fool actually thinks if we just all kiss and make up all our enemys will just get rid of all those nasty nukes and those trying to get them will just forget about it!! Not to mention if you watched the speech by Obama when him, Sarkozy and Brown came out together, it was obvious as hell Sarkosy was extremely pissed and irritated about something. I noticed it right off the bat but just assumed it was maybe because Obama had to go first to speak out of the 3. Now that this has came out it all makes a lot more sense his demeanor from that stage.
 
Just look at the fool in Astan now. Bakc in March he picks * his* guy to run the show and set out with this new strategy. Now 6 months later after he told the general to give him and assesment of the situation, the general tells him back in AUGUST to send more troops or in a years time we may very weell losse this war. What does OBama the clown do next? He ignored and burried the damn report till it finally leaked out last week and come to find out in now 75 days he has spoke to the new man in charge all of ONE time!! Now he is questioning the judgement of the general he put in charge. Yea, that's right. The guy that has never did a thing but run a soup kitchen is now questioning the judgement of a extremely well respected and experienced Army general!! NATO better get ready to take it in the shorts in A'stan. That clown and his clown sidekick VP now think it may be better to fight this war from a distance with UAV's for Gods sake!! Are you friggin kiddin me??? The man is a waffeling idiotic clown and has no clue what he is doing or what to do. To busy doing things like politickin to get the Olympics in Chicago even though they are more broke then the US is 10 times over and can't afford it. But hey, that certainly takes priority over American soldiers dieing right? If I were NATO nations in A'stan I'd get my troops the hell out now while the gettin is good because OBama is going to leave ya there all by your lonesome. Don't think so? Hang around for a few months and see.
 
Beazz
 
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