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Subject: Army suffers from 'toxic leadership'
gf0012-aust    7/1/2009 4:39:31 AM
*Army suffers from 'toxic leadership', warns major*

* Press Association


* The Guardian link Wednesday 1 July 2009

The army has failed to learn the lessons of fighting counter-insurgency campaigns in Iraq link and Afghanistan link a former officer said today.

In a critical article, Major Patrick Little, who left last year after 16 years service, said the army was guilty of "hubris" believing it had little to learn from the experience of other countries' forces.

Writing in the journal of the Royal United Services Institute, he said while "dysfunctional" senior commanders were able to carry on with their careers regardless, talented junior and middle-ranking officers were leaving disillusioned because their views and concerns were ignored.

He highlighted the problem of "toxic leadership" in which "destructive" styles of command were tolerated because they produced immediate results, despite the long term harm they caused.

"Almost every officer serving or retired has examples of seriously 'toxic' commanders, who have bred deeply dysfunctional command climates, and yet have seen their careers sail on undisturbed," he said.

"Any serving middle ranking officer will know of commanders at sub-unit level and below who have been relieved of command, or 'sort toured'. But few will have evidence of the same process applying at senior officer level today.

"Toxicity in command structures, brought about by commanders ill-suited for their roles, is something the army can no longer afford."

At the same time, Little, said that there was an "intolerance of dissent" and an unwillingness to accept criticism of established orthodoxy.

He contrasted the UK's experience with the US which, he said, had undergone a "remarkable transformation" since 2005 as the result of a "no holds barred" appraisal of its performance in Iraq.

He said the army needed to turn a "critical mirror" on itself in order to "begin the journey, through a recognition of the UK military link hubris over the last 10 years, to recover the ground lost with other professional armies".

He said, the US army had seen real change as a result of its willingness to accept and respond to criticism from within the ranks of its own officer corps.

In Britian Little said that talented officers were simply leaving the service for civilian life.
 
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neutralizer       7/5/2009 4:08:13 AM
I admit to not yet having read the article itself, only gaining the impression that the Guardian piece given above is one particular (headline grabbing?) slant on it.  My understanding is that the wrong people being people being promoted to some the higher ranks is only part of the article.  Of course I'm hard pressed to believe that such views don't exist in other armies!
 
The Eton stuff above is underinformed tosh, the last CGS, Jackson, went to a grammar (ie selective) school of the type closed by Mrs Thatcher and for which there is no broadbased demand for recreating them.  My understanding is that state schools continue to increase their proportion of of Sandhurst entrants as they have since RMAS opened in 1947.  All applicants have to pass the seelction board at Westbury.  I'd also point out that given Eton fees then the family is wealthy, and its good to see the sons and daughters of the wealthy volunteering for military service, in plenty of countries they do their best to avoid it.  Its also worth noting that the average age of commissioning from RMAS is 24 and that unlike equivalents in other countries RMAS has never awarded degrees, although now most get them before going to RMAS instead of afterwards as was the case into the 1970s.
 
Next Claret ops, hmmm a fair amount of tosh here.  I speak as one who probably did the last one (not my first) an artillery ambush that was entirely political in purpose.  They were nothing to do with COIN, they targeted Indonesian regular forces.  They were Claret because they were political and kept secret so as not to publicly humiliate the Indonesian govt.  They were a means of seizing the initiative from the aggressor in a inter-state conflict withyout pushing them into a corner.  They were the creation of Gen Walter Walker, a Gurkha officer who had spent most of his service in jungle operations - Burma, Malaya then appointed DOBOPs.  Australian activity in these ops was very limited.
 
In COIN you always keep trying to talk to insurgents with an eye to several possibilities.  One is to get them to see the error of their ways and that they are on a losing course.  Another is to try and find elements that might do a deal that everyone can live with and help you deal with the real extremists (insurgent groups always include varying views that can be developed to advantage).  Given some of the criminals and warlords in the Afg parliament, Taliban aren't a whole lot worse.  This takes a long time, N Ireland is the classic.  Of course as far as UK is concerned the army doesn't do this, SIS are the experts (they maintained fairly continuous contact with the IRA).  Hence a couple of UK embassy staff being kicked out of Afg last year.
 
Helmand is undoubtedly challenging.  UK went there in 2006 when it was thought there wasn't much Taliban there, based it seems on the reports of the 100 or so US troops on the ground there.  Whether or not there was a strong Taliban presence is unclear but UK found they had one hell of hornets nest on their hands and have been fighting intensively ever since, and increasing their troop levels.  The problem is that securing areas once the Taliban have been ejected, as they have from the towns and villages over much of Helmand north of Gereshk means establishing permanent bases, which ties up manpower leaving less available for the ejection task.  As Musa Quala showed, there's no point taking over somewhere if you haven't the troops to hold it and dominate its surrounds, although that at least proved that the traditional authority of the elders cut no ice with the Taliban.  Still a few weeks back when PM Brown was in the provincial capital of Lashkar Gar he wore a suit and tie, none of the helmet and body armour stuff that some politicians wear to try and impress their voters, so security is improving.
 
 
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gf0012-aust       7/5/2009 4:54:07 AM
Australian activity in these ops was very limited.

ROFLMAO.  here we go again.

SASR ran a number of clarets into indonesian territory during konfrontassi.  They weren't limited at all.  perhaps you shouldn't confuse your own pesonal history with others who did go in.

British clarets were all in the other direction and in another country - you might want to check your history before passing comment on stuff that you get creative and lyrical over.

If you were participating in clarets during konfrontassi then that would put you into your mid 60's. If thats the case then your age doesn't gel with all your other rubbish when you put in your two bobs worth periodically.

 
 
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Heorot       7/5/2009 5:42:00 PM

My beef with Herald?

 It seems to me that when it comes to pure facts, he is generally accurate as far as I can tell. Hence the Googler comment, a good googler can glean facts from the internet.

 Where I have a problem with him is in two areas.

 1.                  his interpretations are often wildly skewed to support a far right agenda and he won?t admit that he could possibly be wrong. He will put up strawman arguments to support ridiculous positions and thus divert interesting discussions away from the main subject.

2.                  He is rude and abusive to those who persist in disagreeing with him. This is unnecessary and is another source of diverting and/or obscuring the subject at hand. He should take a leaf out of the other posters who are prepared to agree to differ when no consensus can be reached.

As gf0012-aust said, Darth behaved in the past like Herald does now. I called DA on his bad behaviour then and was one of those that called for him to be banned, and he was, twice. I have not called for Herald to be banned yet but have been tempted from time to time.

 All I ask from Herald is that he reins himself in and stops polluting Strategypage with personal fights and ridiculous strawman arguments.

 

I think the whole "destroying" thing is a bit over top now I reflect on it.  Let's be fair.

 

Heorot, would you like to present a counter argument to Herald, minus the personal attacks?

 

Then we can have interesting debate rather than a string of wasted ones and zeroes.
 
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neutralizer       7/6/2009 7:35:18 AM

Claret ops were undertaken only with authorisation by DOBOPs, although they were mostly tasked by bde HQs. They were undertaken by regular Brit (incl Gurk), Aust and NZ inf, and SF from the same nations. Not sure about MAF but they were under DOBOPs op comd and the Border Scouts were trained by SAS (and possibly SIS). 

If you count up Borneo time in coy months or something similar by this lot you?ll find that NZ represents about 5-% and Aust 5+% of the total effort. The SF balance was a bit higher within this but I?d estimate that UK temporary SF coys clocked up more than Aust and NZ SF combined although their tasking was reportedly a bit different. No one is saying that SASR didn?t undertake Claret ops, just that in the greater scheme of things their contribution was limited. This is reality even if in conflicts with wishful thinking.

The nonsense I was highlighting in my previous post (which was ignored and responded to with abuse ? always a sign of someone caught sans knickers) Claret ops were totally dissimilar to the current COIN ops because the Claret targets were almost always regular forces not the TNI run insurgents (who had basically departed by the time Claret ops got underway). Regular forces had bases and weren?t continuously on the move. This meant they were easy to find if you wanted them. Obviously there was some confirmatory recce tasks.  However, most Claret effort went into offensive ops against smaller bases and intelligence led ambushes against routine movement (and the usually good intelligence tended not to come from SF activity).

I try to provide factual accuracy and provocative comment. I long ago realised that when I?m abused it says more about the abuser than about me. But I confess to a low tolerance threshold for bs.

 
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gf0012-aust       7/6/2009 8:41:04 AM

I try to provide factual accuracy and provocative comment. I long ago realised that when I?m abused it says more about the abuser than about me. But I confess to a low tolerance threshold for bs.


the reason why I treat you with absolute contempt (much like my admiration for Herc/Necro) is because you're a prat with serial form.  You never cease to try and hook into aussies. - 

There are a number of times where you've told prokies and been caught out - now if you want to continue to play that game then go ahead, but I'm quite happy and more than willing too bring you to account when you trot out more rubbish.  Be reasonable, and I'll be reasonable.  Act like a tosser and I'm quite happy and more than willing to hook into you.

Before commeneting about australian SAS role in claret ops I suggest that you do some research before you come back in with another attempt at spraying embellishments into the room. 

You're abused because you behave like a jerk. You also embellish and have at times coloured events to suit your own bigotry.  

I learnt long ago not to let you get away with rubbish.  Go figure.

 
 
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neutralizer       7/7/2009 6:52:19 AM
Still more abuse, (sighs and laughs).
 
I have offered provocative notions that don't fit inside some folks comfort zones (or perhaps illusions/delusions).  When I offer facts they are usually correct, although sometimes guys who've embroidered the truth or can't reconcile them with their perception of reality get agitato.  As I pointed out underinformed claims about Aust participation in Claret ops in Borneo and trying to claim some direct links to current ops in AFG are laughable, or tosh as I would call it.  As I keep saying Borneo was not COIN as the main game and Claret was the height on non-COIN. 
 
Still its good to see there's some fighting spirit in Canberra acting in the fine tradition of when pinned into a corner come out arms swinging and avoiding the subject being addressed. 
 
 
 
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Nichevo       9/22/2009 9:55:06 PM

What job was that then? Grocery deliveries?

 

We are still waiting for you to tell us all EXACTLY what your so-called professional qualifications are.


Until I see a convincing answer, I will consider you as a superb Googler. And that's all. You have acquired zero credibility with me as a result of recent discussions on this site.

 

Right, and who the fark are you then?  What are your quals beyond a mildly cool nick? I gather you were in the Royal Army once and that's why you talk?  You're effing Simon Cowell as far as I'm concerned.  Nothing but abuse out of you, or "p!ss-taking" as you call it when you're called on it.
 
Needless to say I'd like to know more about Herald's resume as well but as a Scot once put it, Do you expect a Highland gentleman to produce his manuscripts under compulsion?  So I wouldn't expect him to answer you.
 
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Heorot       9/24/2009 4:56:28 PM




What job was that then? Grocery deliveries?



 



We are still waiting for you to tell us all EXACTLY what your so-called professional qualifications are.






Until I see a convincing answer, I will consider you as a superb Googler. And that's all. You have acquired zero credibility with me as a result of recent discussions on this site.



 





Right, and who the fark are you then?  What are your quals beyond a mildly cool nick? I gather you were in the Royal Army once and that's why you talk?  You're effing Simon Cowell as far as I'm concerned.  Nothing but abuse out of you, or "p!ss-taking" as you call it when you're called on it.

 

Needless to say I'd like to know more about Herald's resume as well but as a Scot once put it, Do you expect a Highland gentleman to produce his manuscripts under compulsion?  So I wouldn't expect him to answer you.

I've given my background several times before in the last 5 or 6 years but I will repeat it now for you.

I was trained in Systems Analysis in 1980 and I worked at it in regular employment, building  up my expertise until 1990. From 1990, I was a freelance Systems Analyst until I retired from the field in 2003. You don?t get to freelance continuously for 13 years without being considered pretty good.

 

I have had an interest in the military for the last 50 years, mainly in military history. I bitch about his poor analysis skill because I can see the holes in it the size of the Grand Canyon. For me, it is easy to see when some one is full of it; and Herald certainly qualifies.
 
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Heorot       9/24/2009 6:37:51 PM




What job was that then? Grocery deliveries?



 



We are still waiting for you to tell us all EXACTLY what your so-called professional qualifications are.






Until I see a convincing answer, I will consider you as a superb Googler. And that's all. You have acquired zero credibility with me as a result of recent discussions on this site.



 





Right, and who the fark are you then?  What are your quals beyond a mildly cool nick? I gather you were in the Royal Army once and that's why you talk?  You're effing Simon Cowell as far as I'm concerned.  Nothing but abuse out of you, or "p!ss-taking" as you call it when you're called on it.

 

Needless to say I'd like to know more about Herald's resume as well but as a Scot once put it, Do you expect a Highland gentleman to produce his manuscripts under compulsion?  So I wouldn't expect him to answer you.

I've given my background several times before in the last 5 or 6 years but I will repeat it now for you.

I was trained in Systems Analysis in 1980 and I worked at it in regular employment, building  up my expertise until 1990. From 1990, I was a freelance Systems Analyst until I retired from the field in 2003. You don?t get to freelance continuously for 13 years without being considered pretty good.

 

I have had an interest in the military for the last 50 years, mainly in military history. I bitch about his poor analysis skill because I can see the holes in it the size of the Grand Canyon. For me, it is easy to see when some one is full of it; and Herald certainly qualifies.
 
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Parmenion       9/26/2009 10:02:01 AM










What job was that then? Grocery deliveries?







 







We are still waiting for you to tell us all EXACTLY what your so-called professional qualifications are.














Until I see a convincing answer, I will consider you as a superb Googler. And that's all. You have acquired zero credibility with me as a result of recent discussions on this site.







 













Right, and who the fark are you then?  What are your quals beyond a mildly cool nick? I gather you were in the Royal Army once and that's why you talk?  You're effing Simon Cowell as far as I'm concerned.  Nothing but abuse out of you, or "p!ss-taking" as you call it when you're called on it.



 



Needless to say I'd like to know more about Herald's resume as well but as a Scot once put it, Do you expect a Highland gentleman to produce his manuscripts under compulsion?  So I wouldn't expect him to answer you.





I've given my background several times before in the last 5 or 6 years but I will repeat it now for you.



I was trained in Systems Analysis in 1980 and I worked at it in regular employment, building  up my expertise until 1990. From 1990, I was a freelance Systems Analyst until I retired from the field in 2003. You don?t get to freelance continuously for 13 years without being considered pretty good.


 


I have had an interest in the military for the last 50 years, mainly in military history. I bitch about his poor analysis skill because I can see the holes in it the size of the Grand Canyon. For me, it is easy to see when some one is full of it; and Herald certainly qualifies.



Very bright people often are pretty single-minded, and unable to see the points of others once one particular facet has set them off.
 
As for Herald's experience I do not know for sure- but reading through his posts over the last year leads me to the suspicion that he works at or may have worked at Raytheon. He's definitely had some experience with some kind of US defense contractor- no one hates Lockheed Martin with such a passion otherwise.
 
The thing we do know for sure is that he is just about the most knowledgable poster on the forum in nearly all tech and naval history, and the equal of others in alot of other areas. He's allowed to be snappy and behave like an ass occasionally- he can back it up with talent. We have to play by a different set of rules, or be prepared for the fight of our lives, which I've only seen about two people actually win.
 
Don't be arrogant, or French*, and you'll find Herald the best poster on this site to ask for advice etc.
 
*I have tried twice to get FS and Herald to find some common ground and have given up. If anyone can manage it I'll cook them dinner.
 
Of course you may actually be happier just baiting him into arguments and lowering the tone of the forum, in which case this post isn't going to help you.
 
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Godofgamblers       9/27/2009 7:04:58 AM
herald's posts contain more than just googled facts; above the technical issues they contain opinions and analysis: something you cannot simply cut and paste from a website, as if this issue was actually in doubt.
 
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