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Subject: American foreign legion
forvalour    7/24/2008 7:17:59 AM
I have seen several articles on this topic (google 'american foreign legion'), any ideas?
 
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JFKY       7/24/2008 10:11:27 AM
1) The model organization it is based on is a sub-standard model, le Legion Etrangere is HIGHLY over-rated.  Read Douglas Porch.  It succeeds INSPITE of itself.  It is a heterogeneous collection of people, requiring extra effort to mold it into a common operating culture, and the unit has poor NCO's.
2) The US is winning without one....
 
Take your pick.
 
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le_corsaire       7/25/2008 9:53:53 AM

1) The model organization it is based on is a sub-standard model, le Legion Etrangere is HIGHLY over-rated.  Read Douglas Porch.  It succeeds INSPITE of itself.  It is a heterogeneous collection of people, requiring extra effort to mold it into a common operating culture, and the unit has poor NCO's.

2) The US is winning without one....

 

Take your pick.


I find it always interesting, how people how obviously do not have a clue of what they are talking about give their ratings and good advice to others. Have you been in the legion ? Have you ever met some of these people ? How can you say that they have "poor NCOs" ? Just because you read it in a book ?
 
During my active time we had plenty (and good) of contacts (e.g. with U.S. Marine Corps. and also some U.S. commado units). There was nothing which would make a US NCO or officer better than French one ... I really wonder where all that nonsense comes from ...

 
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le_corsaire       7/25/2008 10:00:49 AM
concerning Porch ... it is one thing to bring up interesting theories about why things in the past happened as they did, however being involved in such structures. Without having read this specific book - most of publications about the legion are about its role in colonial wars (which is some justification), however, if you look at their commando operations, say e.g. Kolwezi, or involvement in Tchad things look a bit different.  
 
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JFKY       7/25/2008 10:44:09 AM
No I haven't served in the Legion nor have I served in the Wehrmacht or a Roman Legion..but having read about ALL of them I think I can draw a few conclusions.
 
One conclusion from SEVERAL works on the Legion is that as a heterogeneous organization it spends a lot of time teaching French, mathematics, personal hygiene and a whole lot of other things to people of varying degrees of familiarity with them...meaning for the same amount of effort you get a less capable troop OR for the same level of troop you have to spend a whole lot more money.
 
Further Porch and others, some who HAVE served in the la Legion-recently- point out that it is rather brutal and that the quality of its NCO Corps is rather bad...until its been shot at and the losers killed or replaced.  UNLIKE, the US or British militaries which, overall, have a better process for selecting, training and retaining their NCO's.
 
This ain't French-bashing...its assessing...You tell me how for a reasonable sum of money you can take East Europeans, West Europeans, Africans, Asians, all speaking different languages, with vary degrees of familiarity with modernity, and meld them into a MODERN combat force...it doesn't happen easily or cheaply.  And the Legion doesn't or didn't do a great job of doing it, any way...In the old days, when marching, pidgin French, brutal discipline and the ability to load and fire a musket were the keys to combat success the Legion was good or at least OK.  It's a different world today.
 
Bottom-Line: when one reads a HISTORY of the Legion, rather than the usual HAGIOGRAPHY of the Legion one begins to see that the Emperor has lost a lot of his clothing. 
 
Finally, I might add any organization that celebrates Camerone Day, a massive defeat, in a losing mis-managed cause, as a "moral victory" has some kinks in it...
 
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le_corsaire       7/27/2008 10:01:11 AM
I did not say that waht you were posting was French-bashingg. It is just "uninformed". There is a great tempation obviously to many people who think they can make up their opinion just by reading books and think that they are right. I am not talking about roman legion and I am not talking about Wehrmacht. I do not know what they hav in common wit the French foreign legion. I was in the FFL and had my deployments e.g. in Chad (Operation Epervier) and later in the COS (I am actually French and studied and Saint Cyr). The legion had problems after WWII and Indochine with morale as at that times people have been recruited without really telling them what their deployment would be. So people where attracted under false promises - which in turn led to desertations, etc. This is totally different today - where the Legion can select people they want to have. A good number of them having already military experience in other nation's armies. It seems to be a bit your problem that you think that other Nations (West European, East European ...) are less "modern" than the U.S.. They might be different .. but there is no reason why they should me less modern - as I said, Legion is nowadays recruiting people they can select - and they do usually not take the dumbest ones. Indeed it is a strength in deployments that you have potentially native speeking people (most of them speaking 3 or 4 different languages)  in your team, people with a variety of qualifications and former professions. What you are citing here are clichees ... Camerone - yes, don't you have Marines in the U.S. celebrating (might not e a good word) or honoring/remembering their comrades in Vietnam (you couldn't declare that a massive victory - could you ?) . It is part of the history and part of the "motivation" story which keeps things together. However, one certainly can make far better judgements from reading books ...
 
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JFKY       7/27/2008 10:56:43 AM
Dude, all I can say is what I have read...you're right.  And what I've read says that the Legion has recruited from Franco-phone areas or areas near France that have undergone significant dislocation, Germany (WWI and WWII), Eastern Europe, and now Asia and Africa...and no African and Asia, in the areas under question, say Gabon, Cote D'Ivoire and the like aren't as modern...further, even if they were, if French isn't your first language, lumping 3-4 ethnic groups together and making a coherent group out them is a problem...not only in THEORY but in Practice, in the Legion.  BTW, I mentioned the Wehrmacht and Roman Legions simply as examples of organizations with which I have some familiarity, even if I've never served, not because I think the Legion is or was full of Waffen SS and Landsers from the Wehrmacht (As much a Leftist myth as reality), nor as Roman Legionaries-quasi-mercenaries.  I was trying to suggest that I don't have to have SERVED with something to know it...I assume that you know a bit about Pre-Revolutionary and Napoleonic France, but I doubt you were around when Louis XVI or Marie Antoinette went to the guillotine nor do I think you a member of the La Grande Armee at Waterloo.  One can  knows things without actually experiencing them...it's even a topic of an academic discipline, "Cultural Anthropology", the study of how humans pass lessons from one generation to another.
 
Now if you guys have managed to cull thru the dregs of your immigrant populace, selected well for the very small force that IS the Legion, today, and are applying decent NCO standards and training, HOORAY for you and more power to you, if you are, though, you are bucking the Legion's historical trend. 
 
As to Camerone Day, well no one in the USMC is talking about the Moral victory" that Vietnam represented, unlike the Legion trying to claim that Camerone represents some kind of moral victory..."Yes we lost, but..."   OK it reminds me of the great line from The Eiger Sanction, Clint Eastwood: "Think we're going to get off this mountain?"  Frenchman; "No, but we shall continue wiz STYLE."  Camerone, demonstrated style...I'll grant you.
 
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smitty237    Back on topic   7/28/2008 12:45:36 AM
 

OK, let's move past the French bashing and get back on topic.  Actually, this idea is not a new one.  It's been kicked around in military circles for years, but I doubt it's been given much official consideration.  Still, it's an interesting topic, and might even be workable.

If I were tasked with creating an American Foreign Legion I would first hearken back to the roots of the French Foreign Legion, at least as far as recruitment were concerned.  First of all, I would bar American citizens from joining the Legion.  It would only be open to foreigners, but like the FFL and the Roman Legion, it would serve as a path to American citizenship.  In fact, I would anticipate that this would be the major recruitment draw for the Legion.  Foreign males aged 20-35 interested in joining the Legion would be directed to select U.S. embassies, where they would be screened and undergo a basic physical exam.  If they pass they would then be granted a temporary visa to travel to a Legion processing center.  To prevent desertion and fraud I would set it up in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, or maybe someplace like Samoa (which has strong US military traditions) or Guam.  The prospective recruits would undergo an intensive medical exam to screen for diseases and assess fitness for military duty, and would also undergo psychological testing to screen for emotional illnesses or criminal proclivity.  Prospects that fail this screening would have their temporary visas cancelled and would have to catch the next flight home.

The next step would be basic training, which I would also have at a post somewhere outside the continental United States. The Legion would exist mainly as a rapid deployment light infantry force, and the training would reflect that. It would be physically rigorous, with a heavy emphasis on unit cohesion and discipline. After an initial infantry basic training period select Legionnaires would undergo skill specific training in fields such as communications, combat medicine, artillery, logistics, etc. 

The officer cadre of the Legion would be provided by the US Army and Marine Corps, and at least initially, so would the NCO corps. As Legionnaires gained experience and tenure they would begin to fill the NCO ranks. Legionnaires wanting to become officers would have to serve their initial enlistments and then attend Army OCS schools before they could serve as officers in the Legion. Legionnaire officers would only be able to serve in the Foreign Legion. 

The multi-national make up of the Legion would be problematic. The official language of the Legion would obviously be English, and English language training would be part of the Legionnaires basic training. As one might expect, the most likely recruits for such a unit would probably be Latin Americans, especially if there was a crackdown on illegal immigration in the United States. As such, it might make sense to organize regimental-sized Legion units comprised of Legionnaires from Latin American countries, with Spanish being a secondary language. I would also try to organize units with recruits drawn from Europe, Africa, Asia, and the Middle East (in the latter case with Arabic as a secondary language). Legionnaires that serve an initial four year enlistment would be eligible for U.S. citizenship, and their immediate families would achieve permanent resident status. 

As stated earlier, the American Foreign Legion would serve as a rapid deployment force, which means they would mostly serve as America?s foreign policy firemen??.putting out fires in hotspots overseas. If such a unit existed right now they would be patrolling the Afghan/Pakistani border, monitoring peace keeping efforts in Kosovo, or standing ready at a moment?s notice to intervene in places like Darfur, Sudan. I would allow Legionnaires to attend American military schools, such as airborne school, air assault school, or Ranger school, but I would bar Legion units from serving in any kind of military capacity in the United States other than training.

Damn. This idea is even starting to sound good to me, but I know that it would never happen. First of all, such a unit would be immediately decried by many critics of the US military, both foreign and domestic, as being exploitive, with the recruits being characterized as cannon fodder for imperialistic American ambitions. You would also expect official protests from many of the origin countries of the recruits, especially once they started suffering casualties. If a young American Legionnaire from Mexico, Lithuania, Bangladesh, or Senegal is killed in action while fighting pirates off the Horn of Africa you can well expect that the international media wouldn?t hesitate to show video of his family back in his village crying in anguish, and anti

 
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JFKY       7/28/2008 10:36:12 AM
Smitty, you ignore history from the start...the Legion was made up of revolutionary LOSERS from France, the failed revolution of 1830.  The Legion was NEVER banned for French citizens.  The Legion was, by-and-large, FRENCH thru out it's history.  It is the hagiography and the mythology of the Legion that it was the home of the cat-offs of Europe...and BTW, the Roman Legions were, by-and-large, ROMAN.  You confuse the auxilia with the Legion.  From the Social Wars on, Roman Legions were made up of ITALIANS...the cavalry, the archers, and some infantry were auxiliaries, and not Roman.  So your history is suspect, and so your conclusions....
 
Why would the US want a Legion again?  Foreign mercenaries, speaking a polyglot of languages, with a diverse set of cultural backgrounds, and we're going to form Lithuanians, Senegalese, Haitians, Belorussians, Kazakstanis into a viable military unit?
 
We have such a capacity TODAy, it's called the US Special Forces.

 
When I question the Legion I am NOT French-bashing...I am critiquing the very idea of ANY Foreign Legion, French or otherwise.  The very idea that you can take a grab bag of people and, at a reasonable price and level of effort, create an effective military is debatable.  And as evidence for thsi assertion, I point out that la Legion Etrangere has, traditionally been suspect in its combat ability, because of poor NCO's and is an over-rated unit.  TODAY it may be a good unit, but France fields 9 small battalions of Legionaires, lightly equipped and I ask is this REALLY a model the US needs to emulate?
 
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Bluewings12       7/28/2008 6:27:15 PM
I jump in .
 
JFKY :
""And as evidence for this assertion, I point out that la Legion Etrangere has, traditionally been suspect in its combat ability, because of poor NCO's and is an over-rated unit.""
 
That was probably (?) the case 40 years ago and I 'm talking about poor NCO's only , not about the courage and will of the average Legionnaire . The exemple of Dien Bien Phu is telling , you 'll have to dig deep in History to find a better defense against all odds . I myself believe that any other unit than the Legion would have lost much quicker in Dien Bien Phu ..
 
""TODAY it may be a good unit""
 
Indeed , the Legion is today a very different Unit that She used to be . As le_corsaire pointed it out , the recruitment is probably the most severe , on the par with the best SpecOps like the SAS , Delta , CPA 10 , etc ... Things have changed a lot . I did work with the Legion many times and they are now organized as a real elite unit . They are not only tough but clever , very well equipped , trained to fight on any ground (being jungle , forest , mountain or desert) and the NCO's know what they 're doing . You also have to take into account that they are all vets  besides the few new comers . The Legion is rarely at rest , it is the unit France always use first (besides SpecOps for reconing and intel gathering) . Not even the RPIMA (French Marines)  have the same amount of deployement in war zones .
 
A Legionnaire who spend 9 years in the Legion was probably in war zones 2 third of the time , just ask le_corsaire . When I joined the French Forces in april '81 , I opted for the GFCA (AirForce Commandos) then went to the SpecOps for size and I did good , this is why I know the Legion so well even if I 've never been a Legionnaire .
 
Knowing what it is all about and going back to the thread , I don 't think that the USA need a foreign legion . Why that ?
Because the USA is already a melting pot . Just look who 's in the US Army or in the US Marines . You have Americans , Cubans , Mexicans , Asians , South Americans and so on ... The US Forces ARE already a melting pot , a kind of foreign legion ;-)
They already are all fighting for their unit or for the flag , which is what the FFL is doing . The "esprit de corp" is already there , what they need is better training , that 's all . The fact is that today 10 average US Marines are no match for 10 average Legionnaires . Oooh , don 't go "Boooh !" , it 's true . Don 't forget that I 've been working with your Marines in many occasions and I know what I speak of . This is not bashing , not at all . It is just the way things are .
 
Then , there is the political side and don 't underestimate it . The FFL does the dirty job , the kind of job who 's never in the French news , never . I cannot see any US unit (beside your SpecOps) doing this kind of job , it would be ... well , politicaly incorrect , if you know what I mean ...
This is what I wanna talk about in fact . Here in France , the "war coverage" is minimum and sometimes inexistant . The average French person doesn 't know what the French Forces are doing and what the FFL is doing is mostly kept secret because they sometimes have to fight politicaly incorrect wars in an incorrect manner . But it works , and that 's the way things have to be when you want to win . We don 't count coffins , we don 't count body bags and we don 't count casualties , because it is not something the average French person needs to know , as simple as that .
 
JFKY is saying that the FFL is "lightly equipped" , this is another mistake . 300 hundred Legionnaires with a minimum CAS can do stuff that other units can only dream of . They have the best gears of all French Units (besides SpecOps) and they know how to use them with sheer speed and proficiency . How many times I 've heard a non French Legionnaire saying "I 've done well to sign up , that 's the real thing !" , and the man was sometimes coming from the British Marines !!!
 
Now , the idea to mix different  nationalities into a well held unit is a brilliant idea . It brings personal challenge to all the fighters because you don 't want to hear that X nation has better fighters than Y nation . A Spanish legionnaire doesn 't like to see a Portuguese legionnaire faring better , as an exemple .
 
But as
 
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le_corsaire       7/28/2008 6:59:03 PM

...
I was trying to suggest that I don't have to have SERVED with something to know it...I assume that you know a bit about Pre-Revolutionary and Napoleonic France, but I doubt you were around when Louis XVI or Marie Antoinette went to the guillotine nor do I think you a member of the La Grande Armee at Waterloo.  One can  knows things without actually experiencing them...it's even a topic of an academic discipline, "Cultural Anthropology", the study of how humans pass lessons from one generation to another.
 ....

And this is exactly what I highly doubt. Your academic disciplines are a model of thinking, a model that tries to explain "ex post" why things might have happened as they did. No ... am not at that age that I could was in La Grande Armee at Waterloo (actually I am happy that I was not *lol*). But the thing is, that I am very careful and sceptical concerning the "explanations" and knowledge that historians have built around it - and it is good to be careful, as many aspects even today are not known in full detail (nd probably never will). It is not knowledge it is just a model ... the same what corporate consulting companies do: giving good advice to entrepreneurs without ever having done it their own ... not really a good idea (in my opinion).
 
Concerning the Legion - the legion even today, approx. 15 years after my time there is totally different. This force has one major characteristic: it is extremly adaptive (now you might want to argue that this is chaos and "sub-optimal" - but believe me it is only sub optimal if you do not know how to turn it into a strength).
 
 
 
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