Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Armed Forces of the World Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: American foreign legion
forvalour    7/24/2008 7:17:59 AM
I have seen several articles on this topic (google 'american foreign legion'), any ideas?
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4   NEXT
le_corsaire       7/28/2008 7:15:49 PM

We have such a capacity TODAy, it's called the US Special Forces.
 

When I question the Legion I am NOT French-bashing...I am critiquing the very idea of ANY Foreign Legion, French or otherwise.  The very idea that you can take a grab bag of people and, at a reasonable price and level of effort, create an effective military is debatable.  And as evidence for thsi assertion, I point out that la Legion Etrangere has, traditionally been suspect in its combat ability, because of poor NCO's and is an over-rated unit.  TODAY it may be a good unit, but France fields 9 small battalions of Legionaires, lightly equipped and I ask is this REALLY a model the US needs to emulate?

Your assertion is no assertion but a claim withlittle evidence. The legion's combat ability is simply a fact and where you have your "poor NCO" myth from is again very suspect. I have trained with forces of multiple nations, I have monitored and assessed multi-national trainings and coordinated combined mission - there is nothing practical that that would really support your claims (maybe they are a bit academic). The guys are regularly training and have to keep up with units of the Commandement des Operations Speciales ... and you would not seriously dispute their qualifications, would you ?
 
La Legion has always been a political instrument ... maybe serving a purpose that you simply do not have in the U.S. because of a different political mind set of the population. So you might see it from a European view - which pobably explains a lot.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 


 
 
Quote    Reply

le_corsaire       7/28/2008 7:23:36 PM

 
JFKY is saying that the FFL is "lightly equipped" , this is another mistake . 300 hundred Legionnaires with a minimum CAS can do stuff that other units can only dream of . They have the best gears of all French Units (besides SpecOps) and they know how to use them with sheer speed and proficiency . How many times I 've heard a non French Legionnaire saying "I 've done well to sign up , that 's the real thing !" , and the man was sometimes coming from the British Marines !!!

Now , the idea to mix different  nationalities into a well held unit is a brilliant idea . It brings personal challenge to all the fighters because you don 't want to hear that X nation has better fighters than Y nation . A Spanish legionnaire doesn 't like to see a Portuguese legionnaire faring better , as an exemple .

But as I said , the USA don 't need a foreign legion because the USA already have a "foreign army" , if you know what I mean ...

 

Cheers .


 
Very good answer ... the thing is, that a large company acting in a multi-national environment would as well try to collect the best people from different nations and trying to benefit from different cultures - and this is especially what successful American companies do ... (the less successful try to establish their culture as the sole guideline in other nations workforce which usually does not work ... this is as well a matter of whether you generally see the "foreigners" as less capable and less modern or whether you try to find out what experience they can really add) ... and the latter "foreign army" approach also di not work so very well ... a bit out of control I would say ...

 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       7/29/2008 6:37:34 PM
le_corsaire :
""and the latter "foreign army" approach also di not work so very well""
 
What do you really mean by that ? I might formulate my question differently : What do you think could be improved in the US ground Forces ~including basic training , Team efficiency , Discipline , TacOps , Toughness , Shooting , Endurance , Willingness , and most of all the understanding of the battle at hand AND how to change odds quickly ? (which is what the FFL is good at) .
 
You 've been in , let 's try to share experience . We might both have something interesting to say le_corsaire .
 
Then , you also say :
""a bit out of control I would say ...""

This is what is teasing me I have to say *lol* . Besides bashing the US bootguys (which is sometimes well deserved) what do you ~again~ really mean ? Are you talking about bad discipline and the "gun-ho attitude" ?
If it 's the case , there is not need to debate on it . It 's a fact .They are making the confusion between firepower and efficient killing , It 's as simple as that . Yes I 'm bashing but it is deserved .Some things have to be said for the goodness of the Americans .
I have seen US troopers doing some really weird stuff :-(
First , they tend to stay "Groupir" (!) because they hate to be far from each other (I don 't wanna give up my firepower by sending 2 men on a crazy flanking move !!! ) ???
The only force multiplier that they know of is calling  for help , mostly a CAS ASAP !
Of course I am exagerating but I 'm not far off the mark because I 've seen it with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears .
As much as I did like to drill with Germans , Belgium , Dutch ,  Swiss , I did hate Italians and I looked down on Americans .
Just not worth it ...Too much big mouthed and an Ego as big as the empire state building .
Sorry to say ...
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
Quote    Reply

smitty237       7/30/2008 10:12:53 PM

Smitty, you ignore history from the start...the Legion was made up of revolutionary LOSERS from France, the failed revolution of 1830.  The Legion was NEVER banned for French citizens.  The Legion was, by-and-large, FRENCH thru out it's history.  It is the hagiography and the mythology of the Legion that it was the home of the cat-offs of Europe...and BTW, the Roman Legions were, by-and-large, ROMAN.  You confuse the auxilia with the Legion.  From the Social Wars on, Roman Legions were made up of ITALIANS...the cavalry, the archers, and some infantry were auxiliaries, and not Roman.  So your history is suspect, and so your conclusions....

 

Why would the US want a Legion again?  Foreign mercenaries, speaking a polyglot of languages, with a diverse set of cultural backgrounds, and we're going to form Lithuanians, Senegalese, Haitians, Belorussians, Kazakstanis into a viable military unit?

 

We have such a capacity TODAy, it's called the US Special Forces.



 

When I question the Legion I am NOT French-bashing...I am critiquing the very idea of ANY Foreign Legion, French or otherwise.  The very idea that you can take a grab bag of people and, at a reasonable price and level of effort, create an effective military is debatable.  And as evidence for thsi assertion, I point out that la Legion Etrangere has, traditionally been suspect in its combat ability, because of poor NCO's and is an over-rated unit.  TODAY it may be a good unit, but France fields 9 small battalions of Legionaires, lightly equipped and I ask is this REALLY a model the US needs to emulate?


   

Well, so much for getting back on topic.

First of all, I don?t usually go around just making stuff up. That?s not something I?m generally inclined to do, and frankly I have better things to do with my time. Like everyone else (including you, JFKY) I glean most of my historical knowledge from literature since I wasn?t actually there to witness the formation of the French Foreign Legion, WWII, the Alamo, and just about every other important thing that has happened in history. I guess it?s possible that everything I?ve ever read about history could be wrong and just a pack of lies, but if that?s the case then we all live in a cruel world indeed. 

That said I checked some of my resources to make sure I wasn?t spreading lies. I also reread my original post and your response. What it amounted to was you writing several paragraphs attacking my knowledge of history based upon a few statements in TWO sentences in my post. I am fully aware that Frenchmen have always served in the FFL, but Frenchmen are officially barred from joining the Legion. Frenchmen wanting to join the Legion have always found ways around this, but that wasn?t my point. In my particular model American citizens would not at all be allowed to join as recruits. I?m also quite aware that the FFL is French, hence the name ?French Foreign Legion,? but as the name also implies, there are a lot of foreigners that serve in the Legion, and there are to this day. My point was that membership in the Legion can be a pathway for French citizenship. Legionnaires that have served a certain period of time have the option of applying for French citizenship. Some do, some don?t, but they can if they wish. I am also very bloody aware that the Roman Legions were mostly Roman, or at least Italian. Again, the name is a clue. I am also aware of the existence and purpose of the Roman auxilia. Still, for individuals living in the outer regions of the Empire (Gaul, Greece, Palestine, etc.), joining the Legion could be a way of improving their status in Roman society (many of the ?true? Romans still considered them barbarians). You?re attacking my knowledge of history, but what you?re really do is splitting hairs and reading too much into a few mundane statements. 

Could a polyglot bunch of foreigners be thrown together into a cohesive, effective, unit? Probably not, but this is precisely why I stated that the official language of my hypothetical Legion would be ENGLISH. It would be absolutely vital that recruits have a working knowledge of English, and the whole purpose of basic training is to break down a soldier?s personal identity and team him to work as a member of a team. When I went to boot camp my platoon was made

 
Quote    Reply

Godofgamblers    smitty   7/31/2008 2:44:35 AM
Very well thought out ideas, smitty, a pleasure to read as always.
 
It is interesting how France is somewhat of an empire in the sense that an empire must be willing to take casualties to secure remote points of the empire. Many of the French posters boast of this trait, while for the US, it is not acceptable.
 
This is why the idea of having a US foreign legion filled with 'expendables', although ok in France, would probably not fly in the US.
 
However, perhaps by tinkering with the notion, it could go thru, albeit with other names, other stated purposes etc etc.
 
If I'm not mistaken completely, Canada does something akin to this with JTF2. On paper it is a rapid reaction force for limited engagements, though in reality it is used for sustained combat in hot zones.  
 
The Legion certainly has its place since France still has a large colonial empire and shadowly interests to protect in Africa. As for the US, the US Marines probably fill any expeditionary role that it is needed. As many point out, it would not be well received in the US recruiting 'cannon fodder' for messy assignments....
 
Quote    Reply

DGreat1       7/31/2008 3:15:31 PM
ha
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       7/31/2008 6:55:12 PM
Smitty , I don 't know where you get stuff from , but Frenchmen are NOT "barred" (?) to join the FFL .
 
Buddy , I do like to irritate Americans because when they have their back against the wall , they truly show themselves ;-)
It 's not always nice and clever . That was my point :-(
 
When I say that 10 average Marines will most probably end up as 10 dead marines against 10 average Legionnaires , I 'm not bashing the Men but their TRUE efficiency as a fighting team . It 's all about how to fight and not about the men themselves .
It 's like comparing a green belt judoka with a black belt judoka. Do you copy ?
I could say the same with CPA-10 and Delta , I could say the same with GIGN and SWAT . Your way to approach tactics to defeat the opponent is average . You ask me for proofs so I can ask you why the US Cops are coming to France to learn how we deal with brutal streetfighting without killing anyone , I could also ask you why US commandos are coming here to be trained by French commandos , I also could ask you why your Paras use a bigger "chute" than ours , I could also ask you why your troopers don ' t work in "binome" (a 2 men team) when it 's the corner stone of a well held platoon , I could also ask you why you put emphasis on firepower instead of mobility , I could also ask you why there is so much talking in between troopers before action (I don 't know if you will get the point) , I could also ask you why you don 't want and sometimes squarely refuse to fight outnumbered (moral) , I could also ask you why you ask for proof .
 
Smitty , you have the numbers and the gears but you lack the edge . We fight better than you , it is as simple as that .
I only know 2 other Fighters who fight as well as we do : the British and the Germans . The Canadians and the Australians are to be accounted for too . Your main problem is your Ego , believe me .
 
Cheers .
 
 

 
Quote    Reply

luigi.delta    futile exercise   8/1/2008 3:12:46 AM
It is always the most amusing thing to see our US and FR friends poking at each other. It's also funny to see all the pharaphenelia of subjects they resort to back up their statements. "I've worked with......, I've read about it.......I've been in...etc. etc.
 
Guys I will tell you what:
just by studying primary sources, provided that this documents are real. It's my job.
 
There is nothing, absolutely nothing in the world that matches the French Foreign Legion in terms of miitary values, military traditions, automatism of tactical reactions, and general combat effectiveness. I could make many, many examples, but there is one that, in may opinion, counts even more than then Camerone: Bir Hacheim.
 
There is nothing in the world that can outfight the US armed forces in a conventional war, no matter what its valor or combact effectiveness is. The US could crush any given European country single handed and using the other hand to continue war production.  To make the US think about it, the Europeans should have the following:
 
a true federal state
a true common national feeling (wow ! wow ! wow!)
a true integrated military and military industrial system
 
Once for all I would like to give my two cents about this French bashing thing that looks to be so in fashion on this web site. I do think that any underestimation of the French military apparatus must be classified as bad placed. As an European (Italian) well into military things, I can say that France is the only military power that is truly self sufficient in our continent. It is also the only power that seems to be able to look well into the future. Moreover, for the sake of realism, it must be said the French Army is the one (with the German one) with the biggest military traditions. In the Armed forces traditions are very important untangibles, to use a world dear to the Americans.   
 
respecfully
luigi.delta  
 
Quote    Reply

The Lizard King    Question   8/1/2008 7:23:06 AM
"just by studying primary sources, provided that this documents are real. It's my job."
 
Do you sit at a desk all week?
 
Quote    Reply

luigi.delta       8/1/2008 7:39:02 AM
Lizard
 
"Do you sit at a desk all week ?"
 
Not completely.
 
 I go climbing  a steep hill every day at lunch break with my race bike (1.0 hour a day of strenuous work. Half an hour on the way back, which being downhill can't be considered strenuous work) and I have my half an hour weight session every morning at 06:00.
 
I hope I answered your question in the terms you meant. If not, feel free to ask for more informations.
 
luigi.delta
 
Quote    Reply
PREV  1 2 3 4   NEXT



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics