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Subject: snipers in heliocopters
jastayme3    4/3/2008 12:17:23 PM
Has anyone thought of useing that for close support. It can't replace the traditional method(making everything within five hundred feet of you a desert and calling it peace)which must be used at times. But there are other times when this might be useful-if the target is in a crowd of civilians, has a hostage, has an explosive device you don't want to go off or whatever, for instance. In such cases it might be good to have a sniper that is on call and rapidly transported. And doesn't have his view blocked, or have to worry about getting away.
 
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bob the brit       4/3/2008 12:56:58 PM
the only problem with that is the helicopter becomes a sitting duck. if the baddy has a crew, one of 'em might have rockets, and next thing you know, the pilot's got a real bee in his bonnet.
 
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Ehran       4/3/2008 1:04:45 PM
would be a problem likely to keep the helo steady enough for a shooter to work from. 
 
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FJV    I guess you'ld    4/3/2008 1:16:04 PM
You'ld have to put the sniper on some sort of gyrosabilized platform, because the helicopter vibrations would reduce accuracy.

Also you'ld have to find some way to lessen the effect that the "downwash" of the helicopter rotor has on the sniper bullet.



 
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jastayme3       4/3/2008 1:33:56 PM

 Those do sound like overcomeable problems. For instance there
might be a way to install a longer range weapon capable of eliminating one man with
sniper-like accuracy. It could be aimed partially or fully by computer.
Then too, human snipers have to deal with wind, windage(windage is a minute problem
in modern war of course or at least I havn't heard many complain about it), terrain, etc.
I am not saying the objections mentioned are not valid. But there might be enough advantages
in the idea to try and overcome them.

 
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bob the brit       4/3/2008 3:25:32 PM


 Those do sound like overcomeable problems. For instance there
might be a way to install a longer range weapon capable of eliminating one man with
sniper-like accuracy. It could be aimed partially or fully by computer.
Then too, human snipers have to deal with wind, windage(windage is a minute problem
in modern war of course or at least I havn't heard many complain about it), terrain, etc.
I am not saying the objections mentioned are not valid. But there might be enough advantages
in the idea to try and overcome them.


the "sitting duck" outcome still presents a huge problem, and one not easily overcome.
 
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Wicked Chinchilla       4/3/2008 3:57:42 PM
Much of the snipers power and battlefield effectiveness hinges upon being undetected.  Putting him in a large, loud, flying object in an empty sky eliminates that advantage.
 
It would be easier to frankly just plan ahead and plunk said sniper down in a tree, building, hill, somewhere close to where you need him.  If the terrain is without any of those features, tell me why you need a higher vantage point.
 
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ArtyEngineer       4/3/2008 5:57:58 PM
Has been thought off and is trained for.  I asked someone who has been through the US Armys Sniper School at Ft Benning.  He even said it forms a task in the Sniper Competitions held at Benning attended by most NATO forces and a few other selected invitees.  
 
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DragonReborn    Israel   4/3/2008 6:10:37 PM
The Israeli's already use their heilicopters as snipers to pick off key targets, only they use guided missiles!

Also could the 30 mm M230 chain gun on most helicopters be used accurately in a one shot one kill? The pilot/gunner has a high def video sight which he can use to target people?
 
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DropBear       4/3/2008 6:32:38 PM
Why not?
 
US Coast Guard did it with the MH-90 Enforcer. They used a sniper to shoot the outboard engine of drug runners.
 
 
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longrifle       4/3/2008 10:04:09 PM
jastayme3,

The 9th Infantry Division under MG Julian Ewell frequently put snipers in helicopters in their Mekong Delta area of operations in the late '60s.  It was done at night and it was not usually the kind of precision shooting you're talking about.

The usual procedure called for three helicopters flying blacked out.  A sniper team with starlight scopes and tracer rounds would be in one helicopter.  The other two were gunships.  If the snipers spotted enemy using their starlight scopes they engaged with a tracer.  Then the gunships would open up where the sniper's tracer impacted. 

It produced a lot of kills.    I'm sure some of them were even VC!      
 
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WarNerd       4/4/2008 3:04:04 AM

Has been thought off and is trained for.  I asked someone who has been through the US Armys Sniper School at Ft Benning.  He even said it forms a task in the Sniper Competitions held at Benning attended by most NATO forces and a few other selected invitees.  


Saw the competition on the Military Channel.
They had to deal with all the problems noted in the thread (vibration, down draft, etc.) and the problem of firing downward at a steep angle.
 
There appears to be a lot of luck involved.  As I recall the team that scored highest on the task had never trained for it.
 
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ArtyEngineer    WarNerd   4/4/2008 3:38:54 AM




Has been thought off and is trained for.  I asked someone who has been through the US Armys Sniper School at Ft Benning.  He even said it forms a task in the Sniper Competitions held at Benning attended by most NATO forces and a few other selected invitees.  




Saw the competition on the Military Channel.

They had to deal with all the problems noted in the thread (vibration, down draft, etc.) and the problem of firing downward at a steep angle.

 

There appears to be a lot of luck involved.  As I recall the team that scored highest on the task had never trained for it.


Do you remember the name of the show?  Wouldnt mind seeing that.  Who won?  The guy I was talking to (Former Ranger) said the year he participated it was a Marine Corps team came out on top.  But he also said the Scandanavian Countries and Canada had excellent snipers.  (I guess countires with a strong hunting culture produce good snipers). 
 
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FJV       4/4/2008 12:51:45 PM
Maybe you could put the sniper in a powered sailplane. This would be very quiet and silent.



 
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kensohaski       4/5/2008 8:20:18 AM
As previously mentioned the USCG does this sort of thing all of the time.  Normally a crew chief will take the shot me thinks...  I am sure that this technique has been used elsewhere to ventilate bad guys.
 
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WarNerd       4/6/2008 2:53:40 AM

Maybe you could put the sniper in a powered sailplane. This would be very quiet and silent.
 
A sailplane cannot hover, but must orbit the target area, which makes lining up a shot very difficult.  Most sniper shots from helicopters seem to have been when the helicopter is either in a stationary hover (no motion) or pacing a moving target (no motion relative to the target).
 
Sailplanes are also much less maneuverable (due to the large wing span), so it is a not a good idea to operate at low levels like a helicopter.  Operating at higher elevations means longer range shots and/or firing down at a steeper angle.
 
Not to say that won't be done eventually, assuming it has not been done already.
 
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