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Subject: Rewrite Versailles
jastayme3    3/4/2008 3:51:26 AM

Knowing what you know now, if you could go back in time and rewrite the Treaty of Versailles(being of course endowed for the purpose with superhuman negotiating skills), what would you do?
 
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Herald12345    Thwart the revenge impulse.    3/4/2008 4:52:55 AM
That diplomatic mindset to ameliorate the peace more than  anything else could have saved Humanity so much grief down to the present.

To bad there wasn't a Metternich [Congress of Vienna] to sort it out among the great powers in 1919 or a Teddy Roosevelt [Treaty of Portsmouth]. Instead we had a cretin, named Woodrow Wilson.

Herald

 
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Godofgamblers       3/4/2008 6:37:28 AM
Interesting topic, jay. One thing puzzles me, why didn't things play out like they did after WWII? The communist threat must have been on everyone's minds at the time, so instead of shoring up Germany, which in fact is the natural enemy of the Russians, the bulwark against the Reds, it was dismembered and crushed by reparations.
 
Why didn't the great powers force Germany to enter a defensive pact with Poland against the Russians/Communism, allying their fortunes with Germany instead of foolishly severing them and leaving a vacuum at the heart of free Europe?
 
In terms of revenge, it must have satisfied the public, but it left Europe open in the East. Luckily, the Poles were more than a match for a Russian invasion in the 20s, but with the preoccupation with the 'red menace', I'm surprised the west didn't act as votaries for a forced integration of Germany into an anti-communist military pact, a sort of pre-NATO.
 
 
 
 
 
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Wicked Chinchilla       3/4/2008 9:25:13 AM
Everyone else has pretty much covered it and I completely agree with their sentiments.  
 
1)  Eliminate ALL war reparations.  As is being discussed in a different thread had the Germans fortified the frontier France would probably have attacked.  With the French being the aggressor who then becomes "the bad guy?"  World War I was not a war between good and evil, it was between rival nation-states.  Blaming it on "Evil" Germany was arrogant, stupid, and just plan inaccurate anyway regardless of the horrible consequences that resulted from the reparations in the first place. 
 
2)  Institute rebuilding and aid programs in the areas that were demolished.  France, Belgium, and Germany all needed to be rebuilt to different extents and they all should get a good amount of assistance to do so. 
 
Those are the two main things.  As Herald said if you eliminate the thoughtless and stupid desire for revenge from the Allied nations you spare Germany from its disastrous depression and thus Hitler never comes to power.  No World War II.
 
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Nasty German Idiot       3/4/2008 11:35:19 AM
Problem is, as France was serverely bled out after WW1, and Germany standing on the shores of St. Petersburg (Leningrad), and Brest Litowsk, the European balance was simply gone.   So somehow Germany has to be forced to cut back, at least in its military strengh, if you want to restore a sort of balance. 

- Maybe return to pre-war frontiers would have been possible, but what about the Eastern territories Germany gained  ? ( I would call the creation of Poland a huge mistake looking back, a blocker between Germany and Russia simply doesnt work - not even today - the countries between always get drawn to one side or get incorporated)

- what we all seem to agree on is that a humiliation of Germany and Austria and conditions worsening the economic downfall of the time - and a creating of buffer states were wrong - at least in the way they were historically established.

 
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FJV       3/4/2008 12:08:10 PM
Not sure I would be able to effect an improvement. I could be rewriting history and end up with a post WW1 German communist dictatorship causing the same number of innocent dead civilians.
 
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jastayme3       3/4/2008 3:44:53 PM

  The breakup of the Hapsburg Empire was an institutionalized temptation. It did not require a Hitler either, simply another old-school power-monger. Hitler was an atrocious stroke of bad luck, but that at least could have been forseen. Anti-teutonism is overdone, but Germany did have a militaristic streak and surrounding it with small nations is rather like surrounding pac-man with blue ghosts.

 
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verdunjp       3/4/2008 9:30:55 PM

Interesting topic, jay. One thing puzzles me, why didn't things play out like they did after WWII? The communist threat must have been on everyone's minds at the time, so instead of shoring up Germany, which in fact is the natural enemy of the Russians, the bulwark against the Reds, it was dismembered and crushed by reparations.

 

Why didn't the great powers force Germany to enter a defensive pact with Poland against the Russians/Communism, allying their fortunes with Germany instead of foolishly severing them and leaving a vacuum at the heart of free Europe?

 

In terms of revenge, it must have satisfied the public, but it left Europe open in the East. Luckily, the Poles were more than a match for a Russian invasion in the 20s, but with the preoccupation with the 'red menace', I'm surprised the west didn't act as votaries for a forced integration of Germany into an anti-communist military pact, a sort of pre-NATO.

 

 

 

 


Not sure that USSR was a threat in 1919. The country was in civil war. So according to me, your idea doesn't fit with the time.
 
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verdunjp       3/4/2008 9:41:32 PM


World War I was not a war between good and evil, it was between rival nation-states.  Blaming it on "Evil" Germany was arrogant, stupid, and just plan inaccurate anyway regardless of the horrible consequences that resulted from the reparations in the first place. 
 
The allied just said that germany was responsible for WW1. And they were right. Read the book 'Origin of WW1' written by the german Fritz Fisher and you will share that point of view.
 
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verdunjp       3/4/2008 10:03:41 PM
The title of the book written by Fritz Fischer is : Germany's Aims in the First World War
 
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Godofgamblers       3/4/2008 10:58:36 PM




Interesting topic, jay. One thing puzzles me, why didn't things play out like they did after WWII? The communist threat must have been on everyone's minds at the time, so instead of shoring up Germany, which in fact is the natural enemy of the Russians, the bulwark against the Reds, it was dismembered and crushed by reparations.



 



Why didn't the great powers force Germany to enter a defensive pact with Poland against the Russians/Communism, allying their fortunes with Germany instead of foolishly severing them and leaving a vacuum at the heart of free Europe?



 



In terms of revenge, it must have satisfied the public, but it left Europe open in the East. Luckily, the Poles were more than a match for a Russian invasion in the 20s, but with the preoccupation with the 'red menace', I'm surprised the west didn't act as votaries for a forced integration of Germany into an anti-communist military pact, a sort of pre-NATO.



 



 



 



 




Not sure that USSR was a threat in 1919. The country was in civil war. So according to me, your idea doesn't fit with the time.


The idea of communism was a major threat in the minds of the European public. The idea that a European capital had fallen and the proletariat had taken over caused, i'm sure, fears of a communist takeover. Remember too that Lenin advocated revolutionary communist, an internationalist movement. However, on a military level, you're quite right that the USSR was not on the map at all.
 
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verdunjp       3/5/2008 9:09:12 AM

The idea of communism was a major threat in the minds of the European public. The idea that a European capital had fallen and the proletariat had taken over caused, i'm sure, fears of a communist takeover. Remember too that Lenin advocated revolutionary communist, an internationalist movement. However, on a military level, you're quite right that the USSR was not on the map at all.
The influence of the communist was very low during the first WW and during the years right after. Remember, the internationalist mouvement di not prevent the war and became flaw. Communists and socialists of each country even support their proper governement during the war. So at the end of WW1, the reds were not a threat. It becomes different some years after.
 
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verdunjp       3/5/2008 9:17:57 AM



The idea of communism was a major threat in the minds of the European public. The idea that a European capital had fallen and the proletariat had taken over caused, i'm sure, fears of a communist takeover. Remember too that Lenin advocated revolutionary communist, an internationalist movement. However, on a military level, you're quite right that the USSR was not on the map at all.

The influence of the communist was very low during the first WW and during the years right after. Remember, the internationalist mouvement di not prevent the war and became flaw. Communists and socialists of each country even support their proper governement during the war. So at the end of WW1, the reds were not a threat. It becomes different some years after.


However, the reds in Germany had gain more influence at the end of WW1. To counter that, the allied put in place the Weimar republic. A logic solution.
 
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Nasty German Idiot       3/5/2008 10:19:29 AM
Germany was in a military Alliance with Austria, long, loooong before WW1.   Austria and Serbia declare War ---> Germany has to follow treaty with Austria. ----> Germany responsible for War ?!?!

Second point:  The German military budget remained behind that of Russia and Britain before the War, significantly !

That is especially true if you compare the Entete with the Axis powers.  It didnt even rise just before the War in 1913.

If you prepare a War, you will increase your military budget over that of your foes, if you plan to attack them !  That did not happen, in contrast to WW2.  A clear indication that Germany more or less stumbled into the War, and although it did contribute (mistakes by Friedrich W. II) to a more critical atmosphere before the War. (did nothing to prevent War, more or less welcomed it. - but that was the same in France, you could blame them as much for WW1 as Germany.)

 
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JFKY    Verdunjp/Herald   3/5/2008 10:24:32 AM
I would disagree about the "Red" threat...Bela Kun in Hungary and Luxemberg (sp) and Liebknecht in Germany all established Bolshevik Republics, the German one being in Munich.  True both republics failed, but the KPD was a very strong force in Germany right up until the NASDAP took over.
 
Herald is wrong, and once again personalizes history....the problem was not that "moron/cretin" Wilson...mind you I'm no fan of Wilson...,but the problem was Lloyd George and Clemenceau, and the Italians.  The German government offered an armistice, on the basis of Wilson's 14 Points.  The Allies accepted the offer but did not make the peace on that basis.
 
The Fourteen Points were a better basis for a lasting peace than Versailles was, so I'd excuse Wilson, at the macro scale, and fault him for an inability to get the other Allies to agree and to get his own Senate to join the League of nations. 
 
The only way for Versailles to work was for the Allies to remain united and strong, in support of keeping Germany down.  By 1923 Keynes (The Economic Consequences of the Peace), the British and the United States had all withdrawn from the desire to "Keep Germany Down."  Leaving only Belgium and France to confront Germany, and a Germany that was embittered and impoverished by Versailles, pretty much the worst of both worlds.  Finally add in the Great Depression and you have the recipe for Hitler and the NASDAP.
 
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Nasty German Idiot       3/5/2008 11:46:07 AM
One should also note that even with history as it was, the NSDAP only got 43 % of the votes in 1933, with which they could take over power with the "Notstandsverordnungen" (=Emergency Laws) which were used since years to have a government at all with 10 - 13 Parties sitting in the Reichstag.   In the second election 1932, the SPD (Social Democratic Party) and the KPD (Communist Party) even had a majority over the NSDAP (33 %) , but were not able to work together because of internal differences ---> KPD was pushing Communism, the SPD wanted a Social Democracy.   Hitler was definately avoidable. 

A table:

link
 
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