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Subject: What kind of force does Mongolia need?
chinggis khaan    10/23/2007 11:55:43 PM
Hey, Mongolia is landlocked country between two big neighbors, Russia and China. And hence, in case one of them has something in mind, there is very little Mongolia can offer in terms of resistance. May be there is no need for an air force even. Only job we could find for our armed forces recently was peacekeeping in Africa and Iraq (for economic assistance I guess, otherwise, we couldn't care much about Iraq). What do you think the optimal military should be for us? What would be its mission? There is no internal dispute or anything like that. Police can more than handle internal problems.
I know there has been similar posts before for other countries. Just couldn't resist asking for mine.
 
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murabit821       10/24/2007 10:08:33 AM
 some kind of very mobile forces with strong air defence

 with no Tanks , and air force.

 some kind o mobile battalions
 with armoured wheeled vehicles like Cougar HE 6x6 , can be used in peacekeeping , and this kind of vehicles have better   costs
this vehicle armed with RCWS with very strong ATGM, (maybe Spike) just remove atgm when vehicles go to peacekeeping

this battalions can have organic engineers, logistic elelements , to create small sustainment battalions
also organic atrilery mobile like ceasar or with NEMO

this battalion can have organic air defence AAA (sensor guided like skyguard or swedish boffors )
to protection of battalion from air attack , guided bombs , helicopters

how about current mongolian army ?
have 6x regiment or brigades ?
how many soldiers ?


 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       10/24/2007 2:06:28 PM
1. Grippen fighters for speed and manuerverability, helicopters can't protect you from high altitude attack.
2. Wheeled light and medium armor to take advantage of Mongolia's flat terrain.  
3. Self propelled artillery/rockets, but not much.
4. Transports for paratroopers and moving gear.
5. Alot of light infantry/paratroopers, until the Mongolian economy can generate enough jobs in mining, industry and solar, all of those young men and women would make a great reservist corps for public works and defence.
6. Have a significant corps of troops trained in moutain fighting.  
7. IEDs.  Great, cheap defence and only the US and UK have any real experience countering this technology and strategy. We certainly aren't going to share with the PLA.  Have a special division of the Mongolian DF dedicated to IED building and deployment in urban and rural areas.

 
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murabit821       10/24/2007 2:51:42 PM
Grippens ?? is is joke ?

Czech republic have 2,17 bil usd military budget and buy 14x Grippen for leasing
than Mongolian with 77 mil usd ? how many Grippen they can buy ? on cost 50-60 mil usd
aslo what is for 10-20 grippen against PLAAF or VVS

maybe we must start from country conditions

budget ? than structure of budget (we can derived from those nudget whoch we know for example from some west country)
than how many soldiers this country can provide

 
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doggtag    no tanks, no air force, no navy, etc...   10/24/2007 3:33:39 PM
...sounds like you'd be better served for a nation like that to teach all its citizens the art of improvised guerilla warfare: making weapons from farm implements and everyday tools (think north vietnamese VC planting punji stick traps everywhere) to making improvised explosives and IED out of whatever's available.
Teach them the history of how European resistance movements in WW2 helped hinder the Axis nations, etc).
 
What nation on earth would willingly invade and indefinitely occupy a nation full of potential terrorists?
 
Oh wait, let me rescind that... 
 
 
yes ppl, that was sarcasm.
 
 
 
...but the tactics obviously work: look how much expense it's taken the economically and militarily mighty US to stem the tide of violence in Iraq and Afghanistan (in manpower and materiel), let alone any other nation having to contend with scattered hordes of troublesome rebels. All that's needed is a wealthy foreign presence intent on destabilizing the occupying nation's credibility: think Russia's role during both the Korean and Vietnam conflicts, the US in A-stan during the Russians' incursion, and certainly several other instances in far off corners.
It works even better today when you also can manipulate the media to favor your side of the cause.
 
Although they are nice luxuries to have, combat jets and AFVs aren't always necessary to achieve enough victories to deter a foreign occupier altogether.
 
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FJV       10/24/2007 4:10:41 PM
The terrain in Mongolia: vast semidesert and desert plains, grassy steppe, mountains in west and southwest; Gobi Desert in south-central. This seems like good terrain for using tanks. With tanks being the modern version of cavalry you also have a way of fighting that "connects" with Mongolian history.  However without threats you cannot justify the expenses involved.

With no threats to speak of the army would be mostly used as aid and relief during disasters I suppose. Maybe an anti terror unit could be usefull for dealing with hostage situations or terror attacks or for situations with heavily gangsters who are beyond the capability of the police to deal with. A police armed with handguns has severe problems when dealing with gangsters armed with assault rifles.

With no threats and little need for a large army, I would concentrate on building the strongest economy as possible, so that when you do need an army, you have plenty of money to pay for and train an army.



 
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murabit821       10/24/2007 5:25:56 PM
good terain for tanks , but same with grippen how many cost new MBT ? from 3-10 mil usd uf

Mongolia
2.9 mil population
1,5 mil km2 area
GDP 5,56 bil usd
military budget 1,4 % GDP = 77,84 mil usd
current military 9100 soldiers
in 6 regiments
and one artilery regiment

21 provinces
315 districts


because this country dont have a lot fo money and weapons system become not complicated
conscript can retain
for guerila warfare proposed tied army with this provinces and districts

divided country to regiments  according to geographic areas one for mountains on west , one for south desert. etc
than province tied battalions , but this tied just for conscription , one battalion for 1-2 province depend on population
districts cover by Guerila warfare platoons (consist in peace consist from instructors and administrative personal 3-5 soldiers)
this platoon for special, guerila, IED and other unconvential warfare
this platton one per 1-4 districts depend on population and area
battalions give for this platoon logistic and other support

Battalion
HQ and Support company 
Fire support company/battery (towed guns, rocket launchers, mortars) SP will be best but is depend on money
2-3 x motorized company some with Armoured whelled vehicles like Cougar,Dingo or tactical vehicles like Land rover, Mercedes G , Hummer ,trucks  depend on money
battalion can be understrengh an completed with reserves

training unit
administrative and base unit

on central level
Leadership school
Logistic agency
Special unit
Air transport units with small aircrafts like AN-2





 
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Ehran       10/25/2007 2:33:52 PM
either of mongolia's neighbours totally outclass any conceivable military mongolia could manage to build.  given this mongolia's future will depend on adroit diplomacy not military strength.
 
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murabit821       10/25/2007 5:20:22 PM
yes and USA outnumber Iraq guerila and still have lot of problems
 
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chinggis khaan       10/26/2007 12:54:56 AM
I agree that our country can't afford new MBTs or Grippens.
I even wonder whether a conventionally oriented military is worth the expense. May be a peacekeeping oriented one? or if it is conventional, we should totally restructure and reequip the army. To answer your question murabit:
We have some 400 t-55s, t-62s on paper. But right now half of them was not in good condition.
The BMP-1 s are in better shape and the count is somewhere between 200-250.
BTR-60s are also still running around. mig-21s are grounded. Friend of mine in the squadron says at least 3 is airworthy.
2 out of total 4 Hinds are flyable.
Overall, all the equipments are just targets for modern weapons. the total strength is like 15,000-16,000 depending on that years' conscription success.
The professional soldiers number around 8000.
Trying to re-organize into brigades. (seems like successfully.)
In my opinion we should dump the old soviet armor or try to sell it to someone who needs it.(like the way we sold artillery munitions to afghans 2 years ago.) May be buy some modern wheeled stuff.
Invest into SAMs rather than fighters??



 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       10/26/2007 2:48:13 AM

I agree that our country can't afford new MBTs or Grippens.
I even wonder whether a conventionally oriented military is worth the expense. May be a peacekeeping oriented one? or if it is conventional, we should totally restructure and reequip the army. To answer your question murabit:
We have some 400 t-55s, t-62s on paper. But right now half of them was not in good condition.
The BMP-1 s are in better shape and the count is somewhere between 200-250.
BTR-60s are also still running around. mig-21s are grounded. Friend of mine in the squadron says at least 3 is airworthy.
2 out of total 4 Hinds are flyable.
Overall, all the equipments are just targets for modern weapons. the total strength is like 15,000-16,000 depending on that years' conscription success.
The professional soldiers number around 8000.
Trying to re-organize into brigades. (seems like successfully.)
In my opinion we should dump the old soviet armor or try to sell it to someone who needs it.(like the way we sold artillery munitions to afghans 2 years ago.) May be buy some modern wheeled stuff.
Invest into SAMs rather than fighters??





Maybe spend the money on refurbishing this stuff.  There have been some threads here about other low-budget countries refitting old planes, tanks and helicopters.  I think Russia has put together refit kits involving new engines, electronics and weapons.  Might be worth looking into.

And I've read that there are some issues with young Mongolians leaving the farms and the nomadic tribes for city life, but the economy is not up to speed to provide jobs.  What if the Mongolian gov't started a volunteer reserve force.  Monthly military and public works training along with pay?  That would give young people something to do, some extra income (which would also help jump start domestic consumerism) and provide military training for national defense as well as develop national infrastructure.
 
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chinggis khaan       10/26/2007 4:32:07 AM
Maybe spend the money on refurbishing this stuff.  There have been some threads here about other low-budget countries refitting old planes, tanks and helicopters.  I think Russia has put together refit kits involving new engines, electronics and weapons.  Might be worth looking into.

And I've read that there are some issues with young Mongolians leaving the farms and the nomadic tribes for city life, but the economy is not up to speed to provide jobs.  What if the Mongolian gov't started a volunteer reserve force.  Monthly military and public works training along with pay?  That would give young people something to do, some extra income (which would also help jump start domestic consumerism) and provide military training for national defense as well as develop national infrastructure.

Do you think refurb is a good investment into these old hardware? I'm not sure about it. Last June a border force Mi-8 crashed. Upon investigation it was discovered that the Russians have effectively replaced the MI-8MBT by MI-8T by changing the electronics, avionics, ENGINE and many more stuff when they did a refurbishment last year.
They have actually DOWNGRADED the chopper, made the outer look better by painting and all and bribed the acceptance personnel big time. This was a government to government deal!!!

As for the youth, yes they are coming into the capital in large numbers. May be we should look into a scheme like that.

One more question. Do you think we should pull our troops from iraq? everyone seems to be looking at exit.


 
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murabit821       10/26/2007 1:19:28 PM
 
that 400 tanks are realy old , maybe when mongolia have T-72 , T-72 give space to upgrading or modernization
also this t-55 is fuel eater
 Slovakia also have BMP-1(BVP-1) and give to this vehicles new turret , but Slovakia and Mongolia different condition
 fighters and helicopters in this numbers are just a lot of problems rather than combat power
 how about artilery ? D-20,D-30,M-46, 2S1, 2S3 , GRAD ? which one mongolia have ?
maybe 8000 profesionals are to many for Mongolia

what about this regiment to brigade reform ? what this reform compose ? just rename or different structure
i suppose that old regiment are like old soviet model regiment ?

Mongolia have big big teritory , maybe fighters are better than SAM but lack of money , and for SAMs area is to large
focus Air defence to protect combat units , AAA, Hybrid air defence systems
Mongolia dont have any Shilka ? or SA-9,SA-13 ?

hm that Nanheyangrouchuan  propose of voluntaar reserve looks good , let advance


for Iraq , here in Slovakia when former prime minister Dzurinda want send troops to Iraq , 70% slovaks dont want this , why ? everybody thinks it is for oil , and peoples dont like that style with imaginary NBC weapons, But prime minister dont accept public opinion and send troops, 2006 new goverment , and all troops to withdraw ,  How about public opinion in Mongolia ?


 

 
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Claymore       10/26/2007 6:19:12 PM

1. Grippen fighters for speed and manuerverability, helicopters can't protect you from high altitude attack.
2. Wheeled light and medium armor to take advantage of Mongolia's flat terrain.  
3. Self propelled artillery/rockets, but not much.
4. Transports for paratroopers and moving gear.
5. Alot of light infantry/paratroopers, until the Mongolian economy can generate enough jobs in mining, industry and solar, all of those young men and women would make a great reservist corps for public works and defence.
6. Have a significant corps of troops trained in moutain fighting.  
7. IEDs.  Great, cheap defence and only the US and UK have any real experience countering this technology and strategy. We certainly aren't going to share with the PLA.  Have a special division of the Mongolian DF dedicated to IED building and deployment in urban and rural areas.

Russia has a lot of experience with dealing with IEDs from chechnya

 
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jastayme3       10/27/2007 5:36:51 AM

...sounds like you'd be better served for a nation like that to teach all its citizens the art of improvised guerilla warfare: making weapons from farm implements and everyday tools (think north vietnamese VC planting punji stick traps everywhere) to making improvised explosives and IED out of whatever's available.

Teach them the history of how European resistance movements in WW2 helped hinder the Axis nations, etc).

 

What nation on earth would willingly invade and indefinitely occupy a nation full of potential terrorists?

 

Oh wait, let me rescind that... 

 

 

yes ppl, that was sarcasm.

 

 

 

...but the tactics obviously work: look how much expense it's taken the economically and militarily mighty US to stem the tide of violence in Iraq and Afghanistan (in manpower and materiel), let alone any other nation having to contend with scattered hordes of troublesome rebels. All that's needed is a wealthy foreign presence intent on destabilizing the occupying nation's credibility: think Russia's role during both the Korean and Vietnam conflicts, the US in A-stan during the Russians' incursion, and certainly several other instances in far off corners.

It works even better today when you also can manipulate the media to favor your side of the cause.

 

Although they are nice luxuries to have, combat jets and AFVs aren't always necessary to achieve enough victories to deter a foreign occupier altogether.

Such tactics don't by themselves really work as tactics. They just make defeat take longer. But sometimes that is itself a victory if the bigger power decides it is not worth the bother.  So they often work as strategy.
They also depend on either on the occupiers being unwilling to exterminate the population or(in the case of Afghanistan) said extermination taking so long because of terrain difficulties that it amounts to the same thing. In affect having an insurgency is having the inconveniences of war and subjugation at the same time. And PRC and Russia are not known for being subtle counterinsurgents. However that may really be all Mongolia can do from the strictly military sense. But you should know what you would be letting yourself in for.

 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       10/27/2007 4:38:13 PM
Well, with so many limitations, it may be in Mongolia's best interest to get some military gear, training and technical assistance from other low budget militaries in Africa, South America or the Middle East.  But at least get some good vehicles from Japan or Germany and maybe some second hand helicopters.
 
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