Which is the best 9mm pistol?

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BasinBictory RE:Horse Soldier 1/3/2006 1:29:53 PM

Horsesoldier, My comment about the CZ-75 was from the book, not the movie. I can't recall the page number or passage, but it did clearly state that in certain undercover roles, having a sidearm less bulky than their 1911's was desirable, and one of the pistols they chose was a CZ-75. As far as police carry - I've known a number of cops from different agencies where they were allowed a certain amount of leeway in terms of what service pistol they could carry. I believe certain departments DO in fact mandate that you carry the standard sidearm, and nothing else (I don't think I've ever seen an LAPD officer with anything other than the Beretta 92F) but I know other agencies and departments allow differences of caliber, make and model, etc - as long as the chosen firearm meets certain requirements (e.g. - under a certain weight, length, minimum magazine capacity, usage of hollowpoints, DA/SA required, etc.)

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Cato RE:Browning HP and +P+ ammo 3/4/2006 9:33:09 PM

A gun dealer gave me some anecdotal evidence that the High Power is too fragile to handle the super hot 9mm loads. Have any of the posters who own and use the High Power run into this difficulty? The gun dealer said that factory new HP's from post 1994 were structurally superior, and could better withstand +P+ ammo. Does this hold water? What are the hottest loads posters here regularly use. Thanks, Cato

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Horsesoldier RE:Browning HP and +P+ ammo 3/5/2006 8:47:01 AM

>>A gun dealer gave me some anecdotal evidence that the High Power is too fragile to handle the super hot 9mm loads. Have any of the posters who own and use the High Power run into this difficulty? The gun dealer said that factory new HP's from post 1994 were structurally superior, and could better withstand +P+ ammo. Does this hold water? What are the hottest loads posters here regularly use.<< I personally have never had any problem with my "classic" (pre-Mark II/Mark III) High Power firing up to +P ammunition and mil-spec ball ammo. I don't necessarily give it really heavy and regular workouts with hot rounds, though. The 1994 date was a bit of a stumper, but after looking at Stephen Camp's website link I'm guessing the guy may have been talking about frames built after the introduction of the .40 caliber version of the Browning. Camp's website is quite good and he addresses the topic of Hi-Powers and +P ammunition specifically link along with a whole slew of other Hi-Power topics (plus some 1911 stuff and assorted other odds and ends).

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flamingknives RE:Browning HP and +P+ ammo 3/5/2006 8:56:50 AM

Something I read on the Arrse.co.uk fora was that the browning - standard sidearm for the British army - ended up with a bit of a bad rep after they took the Sterling SMG out of service. They had lots of +P+ (SMG ammo) left over so they just stuck it in the Brownings. It was something to do with the number of lugs but the 'hot' ammo ended up cracking the frame.

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Yimmy RE:Browning HP and +P+ ammo 3/5/2006 9:54:19 AM

We should have kept the Sterling... great SMG, it bugs me that I never have had the chance to shoot one.

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Horsesoldier RE:Browning HP and +P+ ammo 3/5/2006 10:15:12 AM

>>Something I read on the Arrse.co.uk fora was that the browning - standard sidearm for the British army - ended up with a bit of a bad rep after they took the Sterling SMG out of service. They had lots of +P+ (SMG ammo) left over so they just stuck it in the Brownings. It was something to do with the number of lugs but the 'hot' ammo ended up cracking the frame. << Yeah -- the website I mentioned notes that the Mark III's somewhat heavier and reinforced construction was based on the SAS breaking weapons while firing SMG ammo. But, the vast majority of civilian users aren't going to be shooting as much and as often as guys at that level (I'm assuming almost daily range time for the SAS like the Delta guys get).

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Cato RE:Browning HP and +P+ ammo 3/5/2006 12:12:17 PM

Is this weakness unique to HP-35s, or do all handguns that use the Browning cam actuated system have problems with +P+ ammo? What handguns reliably and consistantly fire the hopped up type ammo? I understand that this is not really an issue for a civillian gun owner, just curious. Thanks much, Cato

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Bigbro RE:Browning HP and +P+ ammo 3/5/2006 1:08:34 PM

My understanding is that the +P+ ammo is for SMG's or are only sold to military and law inforcement. I could not find my data on this but standard 9 X 19 runs at a max of ~35000 CUP. The .44 mag is at about 43,000 CUP. The +P+ ammo is probably running in the same range of pressures as the .44 mag but I do not have anything in front of me documenting this. What may have happened in the past in a change of materials in the frames to allow for higher operating pressures and higher slide velocities. If Iwas going to shoot +P+ in a 9mm I would do the following. Go to a stronger spring, say from an 18# to a 20 to 22#. I would also install a slide buffer. Last, I have access to this, I would dye penitrant test the frame after 50 round then after another 100 rounds and then every 500 rounds after that. It is not a big deal if you have the test kit and you can buy one at a welding supply house. Pistol designs that will take the .40 S&W or the 9x23 winchester should take the +P+ 9x19mm. But I would stay away from cast frames and alloy frames. This ammo was put together to address terminal performace issues with the 9mm that were brought up by government agencies, at their requests. The duty rounds are the +P+ but the training ammo is almost always the standard pressure loadings. I have been told of one department on the east coast that started off using the +P+ for training in their 92F's but after some problems with the locking lugs they changed the training ammo and started the dye tests that I outlined above. Third or forth hand I heard that the SEALS were using 147gr +P+ at one time in their M9's and had some problems also. What will happen is that something will work forever at the designed pressures but if you go over that design limit just a little you have an expodential decrease in life. I have one 1911 (.45) that I have put over 20,000 rds. through, all within pressure limits and the cases last for at least 20 reloadings. I have seen them come a part after about 300 rds when loaded to hot. The guy was lucky it was a steel framed gun and not something lesser or he would have lost some fingers. Bb

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Horsesoldier RE:Browning HP and +P+ ammo 3/5/2006 9:59:17 PM

>>Is this weakness unique to HP-35s, or do all handguns that use the Browning cam actuated system have problems with +P+ ammo? What handguns reliably and consistantly fire the hopped up type ammo? I understand that this is not really an issue for a civillian gun owner, just curious.<< Like BigBro said in much more detail -- it's mostly an issue of weapons designed for normal operating pressures then having ammunition they were never designed to fire fed through them. It's more of an issue in older weapons, since newer designs were put together with an eye towards use (and possible liability issues relating to) +P and +P+ ammunition. In the case of the Browning, a Mark III (1988 manufacture or more recent) should be fine for +P (though you might want to go with the heavier springs BigBro advocated) and, well, +P+ is, to my thinking, probably more round than most (government or civilian) really need . . . but then I'm fine with standard pressure and attention to shot placement and repetition if necessary with 9mm or 45 cal.

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DarthAmerica My favorite 9mm for... 3/6/2006 5:23:32 PM

Duty Weapon would be the Glock 19. Its powerful, accurate, managable recoil, reliable, plenty of accessories, readily available cheap parts, high capacity, small enough to conceal easily, big enough to be a duty weapon , low cost and damage resistant. Had a police car run over my Glock 23(.40 Cal but basically the same gun) and it still worked great. BUT if maximum concealability is required, due to light clothing or weather, the 9mm I would choose the PM9 from Kahr Arms.

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