The Strategypage is a comprehensive summary of military news and affairs.
 News As History - November 25, 2009




New Strategy - Wargames at Discount Prices
1.Modern Air Power: War Over the Middle East
2.Commander: Napoleon at War
3.Close Combat: Watch am Rhein
4.Gallic Wars
5.Fast Action Battle: The Bulge

100+ Computer and Board games all with free shipping.
 
 
 
Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use
How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Weapons of the World Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Gatling Gun Question?
mabie    5/12/2009 12:07:35 AM
I'm curious why the Gatling Gun wasn't developed or used during WW2. I may be mistaken though so please enlighten me. It would have made a terrific CIWS against the Kamikaze IMO.
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Sort in Reverse Order Posted

Pages: 1 2
WarNerd       5/12/2009 4:41:42 AM
By Gatling Gun I assume you are referring to an electrically powered weapon like the various Vulcan Cannon and Minigun derivatives.
 
The most likely reason was that no one saw a pressing need for such a weapon in the time frame available.  If you look back at the weapons used in WW2 there are actually very few items fielded in large numbers that were not items in development before the war or derivative of those designs.
 
Another is that most vessels in the period did not have a surplus of electrical power
 
Then there is the complexity of the weapon system itself.  While the gun is a simple and reliable design, designing the high speed ammunition feed from scratch would be a nightmare.  Once you have all that, then you need to figure out how to mount and point the gun and a lot of ammunition.  There is no quick way to reload the ammunition drum, so you will need one big enough for say a 1/2 hour multi-plane engagement.  If this were in 20mm then I expect that the result would be about the same weight as a 40mm quad mount when you include about 10,000+ rounds on the mount.  You also lack anything beyond the Mark I fire control system (eyeball, brain, and Kentucky windage).
 
The real Kamikaze killers were the 5" guns with radar proximity fused munitions. 
 
Quote    Reply

mabie       5/13/2009 2:23:57 AM
Thanks, makes sense. 
 
Quote    Reply

Ispose    Quad .50's   5/19/2009 12:46:10 PM
Look at the M-16 GMC...AA Halftrack with Quad .50 HMG's...lots of Firepower, no electrical requirements, utter reliability. They were very useful for infantry support in WW2 and Korea...So were the M-19's with Dual 40mm AA.
This begs the question....why dont we use the M-167 Vulcans as a ground support weapon...equip with thermal sights, 20mm HE rounds...park them on overwatch and blast any Taliban on foot within their LOS.
 
 
Quote    Reply

WarNerd       5/20/2009 5:53:22 AM

This begs the question....why dont we use the M-167 Vulcans as a ground support weapon...equip with thermal sights, 20mm HE rounds...park them on overwatch and blast any Taliban on foot within their LOS.

Lets see, is it because:
3.   No one wants to sift through the scattered remains for intelligence.
2.   It would be total overkill and the press would rush to publish all the photos they could get of the bodies (think "Highway of Death") and complaints from the relatives that the US is desecrating the bodies because they are so mangled..
1.   We have better uses for the trucks and planes we would have to use to ship all the ammo needed to feed these beasts. 
The main problem in Afghanistan is not a shortage of firepower, it is a shortage of logistics.
 
Quote    Reply

mabie       5/20/2009 6:20:29 AM
Nobody could have anticipated the kamikaze strategy at the start of the war. If they had, perhaps they would have given more impetus to the development of a rotary-type weapon as a CIWS option. The proximity fuse is considered one of the great achievements coming out of WW2. However dozens of allied shps and many more were damaged regardless of the proximity fuze, fighter screens and thousands of small caliber weapons deployed to protect the fleet. But this is all in hindisght and hindsight is always 20-20 vision.
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345       5/20/2009 10:03:17 AM
The main problem in Afghanistan is not a shortage of firepower, it is a shortage of logistics.
 
Hence the insane BHO strategy of trying to Stalingrad our army, because without dealing with the Pakistan problem, we have no LOC to the sea..
 
Nobody could have anticipated the kamikaze strategy at the start of the war. If they had, perhaps they would have given more impetus to the development of a rotary-type weapon as a CIWS option. The proximity fuse is considered one of the great achievements coming out of WW2. However dozens of allied shps and many more were damaged regardless of the proximity fuze, fighter screens and thousands of small caliber weapons deployed to protect the fleet. But this is all in hindisght and hindsight is always 20-20 vision.

The only ship mounted defense that would have worked then; is large caliber AAA (5/38 or 3/50), proximity fused shells and a radar director. All of that was 1944/45 and too late.  The USN tried from 1935 on to fix the threat  with the 1.1 inch quad as a mount that could down an attacker with a bullet hose of 28 mm impact fused explosive shells.at a rate of 400-450 r/m from each quad barrel mount. This didn't work because they moiscalculated how long the aircraft in a head on aspect would bve in the bullet stream. At a slant MER of about 5000 meters, a single mount would have 2000 meters of usable interval to engage  The usual aircraft at the time was estimated to attack at about 190 mph, or about 100.ms. That is 20 seconds or less to lay in and get 150-170 shells within range of a Japanese bomber. that would release its payload. The torpedo plane at 50 m/s wouold release 1000 meters away, so thew defense would have the same 20 seconds against a head on aspect target.
 
The 1.1 shell was too small, and the slant range too short. The 40 mm Bofors was USN panic pressed into servoce to replace the "Chicago organ" since it used a 40 mm shell, had a MER slant of 7000 meters and could bullet stream in a quad mount at about 480 r/m. Thus improved engagement time to 30 seconds. It worked somewhat against the Japanese so that conventional attack at the Turkey Shoot was suicide for the singletons after Spruance's fighters worked Ozawa's boys over.
 
Couldn't stop a cruise missile as the idiot, Halsey, and the unfortunate Sprague discovered off Samar. 
   
Would the gatling gun of the day work?
 
You would need an electric driven bearing and azimuth driven two axis stabilzed mount and an electric driven 3 barrel 30mm/70 caliber gun with a 1000 r/m  rate of fire, with an electruc driven optical director to point it and a gun crew that can serve it. That will give you 48 shells into a target in 3 seconds. That will work for the attacks expected in 1935. It was beyond the technology of the day and won't work in 1944.. 
         
Herald
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

FJV    Maybe something mundane, but   5/20/2009 2:22:20 PM
With a Gatling gun you get 1 machinegun for manufacturing 6 gun barrels.
 
With conventional machineguns you get  6 machineguns for manufacturing 6 gun barrels.
 
The second option makes the most sense in my opinion if you want to get the largest amount of stuff to the troops.
 
 

 
Quote    Reply

Ispose    Re: Warnerd   5/20/2009 2:44:05 PM
Lets see, is it because:
3.   No one wants to sift through the scattered remains for intelligence.
2.   It would be total overkill and the press would rush to publish all the photos they could get of the bodies (think "Highway of Death") and complaints from the relatives that the US is desecrating the bodies because they are so mangled..
1.   We have better uses for the trucks and planes we would have to use to ship all the ammo needed to feed these beasts. 
The main problem in Afghanistan is not a shortage of firepower, it is a shortage of logistics.
 
No such thing as overkill...Dead is Dead. A GPS Bomb doesn't mangle bodies?...false arguement there. As far as supplying them...how much logistical support does an A-10 require?....lots plus the support crew. the M-167 would be very useful as an addition to any mission that is already using vehicles. As soon as that baby spins up the Taliban would be off and running.
I do agrere that if you need intel there wouldn't be much to sift thru...
I do think that it would be ideal for hilltop interdiction posts...much better range than a .50. Put some slat armor on it to protect against RPG's...would be very useful.
One question however....will the gun depress enough to engage targets at a lower elevation or close in?...It was designed to engage aircraft and not ground tatgets.
 
Quote    Reply

mabie       5/21/2009 5:33:52 AM

The main problem in Afghanistan is not a shortage of firepower, it is a shortage of logistics.

 

Hence the insane BHO strategy of trying to Stalingrad our army, because without dealing with the Pakistan problem, we have no LOC to the sea..


 

Nobody could have anticipated the kamikaze strategy at the start of the war. If they had, perhaps they would have given more impetus to the development of a rotary-type weapon as a CIWS option. The proximity fuse is considered one of the great achievements coming out of WW2. However dozens of allied shps and many more were damaged regardless of the proximity fuze, fighter screens and thousands of small caliber weapons deployed to protect the fleet. But this is all in hindisght and hindsight is always 20-20 vision.





The only ship mounted defense that would have worked then; is large caliber AAA (5/38 or 3/50), proximity fused shells and a radar director. All of that was 1944/45 and too late.  The USN tried from 1935 on to fix the threat  with the 1.1 inch quad as a mount that could down an attacker with a bullet hose of 28 mm impact fused explosive shells.at a rate of 400-450 r/m from each quad barrel mount. This didn't work because they moiscalculated how long the aircraft in a head on aspect would bve in the bullet stream. At a slant MER of about 5000 meters, a single mount would have 2000 meters of usable interval to engage  The usual aircraft at the time was estimated to attack at about 190 mph, or about 100.ms. That is 20 seconds or less to lay in and get 150-170 shells within range of a Japanese bomber. that would release its payload. The torpedo plane at 50 m/s wouold release 1000 meters away, so thew defense would have the same 20 seconds against a head on aspect target.

 

The 1.1 shell was too small, and the slant range too short. The 40 mm Bofors was USN panic pressed into servoce to replace the "Chicago organ" since it used a 40 mm shell, had a MER slant of 7000 meters and could bullet stream in a quad mount at about 480 r/m. Thus improved engagement time to 30 seconds. It worked somewhat against the Japanese so that conventional attack at the Turkey Shoot was suicide for the singletons after Spruance's fighters worked Ozawa's boys over.

 

Couldn't stop a cruise missile as the idiot, Halsey, and the unfortunate Sprague discovered off Samar. 


   


Would the gatling gun of the day work?

 

You would need an electric driven bearing and azimuth driven two axis stabilzed mount and an electric driven 3 barrel 30mm/70 caliber gun with a 1000 r/m  rate of fire, with an electruc driven optical director to point it and a gun crew that can serve it. That will give you 48 shells into a target in 3 seconds. That will work for the attacks expected in 1935. It was beyond the technology of the day and won't work in 1944.. 


         

Herald


 Thanks for the feedback. Just curious as to why something similar to a 6-barrel 20mm rotary cannon with a >3000 r/m rate of fire couldn't have been built back then. Was there any technological hurdle to building such a CIWS?

 


 
Quote    Reply

WarNerd       5/21/2009 5:47:53 AM

Lets see, is it because:
3.   No one wants to sift through the scattered remains for intelligence.
2.   It would be total overkill and the press would rush to publish all the photos they could get of the bodies (think "Highway of Death") and complaints from the relatives that the US is desecrating the bodies because they are so mangled..
1.   We have better uses for the trucks and planes we would have to use to ship all the ammo needed to feed these beasts. 
The main problem in Afghanistan is not a shortage of firepower, it is a shortage of logistics.

No such thing as overkill...Dead is Dead. A GPS Bomb doesn't mangle bodies?...false argument there. As far as supplying them...how much logistical support does an A-10 require?....lots plus the support crew. the M-167 would be very useful as an addition to any mission that is already using vehicles. As soon as that baby spins up the Taliban would be off and running.

I do agree that if you need intel there wouldn't be much to sift thru...

I do think that it would be ideal for hilltop interdiction posts...much better range than a .50. Put some slat armor on it to protect against RPG's...would be very useful.

One question however....will the gun depress enough to engage targets at a lower elevation or close in?...It was designed to engage aircraft and not ground targets.

 
OK, first off reasons 3 and 2 were gallows humor.  Reason 1 is serious.  There is no question that 20mm gatling would be effective against infantry on foot or in thin skinned vehicles.
 
As for your logistics argument, which would you rather have, 6 x M-167 or one A-10, because you cannot support both.
 
The range advantage is not significant.  The major limitation is your ability to identify potential targets as hostile or non-hostile, something that is frequently very difficult to do until they open fire (or not).
 
The ability to depress the gun below horizontal is probably less of a problem than the inevitable dead zones from a hill top position.  You will also generally not be able to get 360 degree coverage with a single gun without endangering your own people.  And again there is the logistics question:  Which would you rather have for your "hilltop interdiction post", an M-167, or a vehicle hauling a couple of 0.50 cal machine guns, an 81mm mortar, and a load of ammo and supplies?
 
As in anything else, you have to make trade-offs.
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345       5/21/2009 9:17:13 AM




The main problem in Afghanistan is not a shortage of firepower, it is a shortage of logistics.



 



Hence the insane BHO strategy of trying to Stalingrad our army, because without dealing with the Pakistan problem, we have no LOC to the sea..






 



Nobody could have anticipated the kamikaze strategy at the start of the war. If they had, perhaps they would have given more impetus to the development of a rotary-type weapon as a CIWS option. The proximity fuse is considered one of the great achievements coming out of WW2. However dozens of allied shps and many more were damaged regardless of the proximity fuze, fighter screens and thousands of small caliber weapons deployed to protect the fleet. But this is all in hindsight and hindsight is always 20-20 vision.












The only ship mounted defense that would have worked then; is large caliber AAA (5/38 or 3/50), proximity fused shells and a radar director. All of that was 1944/45 and too late.  The USN tried from 1935 on to fix the threat  with the 1.1 inch quad as a mount that could down an attacker with a bullet hose of 28 mm impact fused explosive shells.at a rate of 400-450 r/m from each quad barrel mount. This didn't work because they miscalculated how long the aircraft in a head on aspect would be in the bullet stream. At a slant MER of about 5000 meters, a single mount would have 2000 meters of usable interval to engage  The usual aircraft at the time was estimated to attack at about 190 mph, or about 100.ms. That is 20 seconds or less to lay in and get 150-170 shells within range of a Japanese bomber. that would release its payload. The torpedo plane at 50 m/s would release 1000 meters away, so thew defense would have the same 20 seconds against a head on aspect target.



 



The 1.1 shell was too small, and the slant range too short. The 40 mm Bofors was USN panic pressed into service to replace the "Chicago organ" since it used a 40 mm shell, had a MER slant of 7000 meters and could bullet stream in a quad mount at about 480 r/m. Thus improved engagement time to 30 seconds. It worked somewhat against the Japanese so that conventional attack at the Turkey Shoot was suicide for the singletons after Spruance's fighters worked Ozawa's boys over.



 



Couldn't stop a cruise missile as the idiot, Halsey, and the unfortunate Sprague discovered off Samar. 






   






Would the Gatling gun of the day work?



 



You would need an electric driven bearing and azimuth driven two axis stabilized mount and an electric driven 3 barrel 30mm/70 caliber gun with a 1000 r/m  rate of fire, with an electric driven optical director to point it and a gun crew that can serve it. That will give you 48 shells into a target in 3 seconds. That will work for the attacks expected in 1935. It was beyond the technology of the day and won't work in 1944.. 






         



Herald






 Thanks for the feedback. Just curious as to why something similar to a 6-barrel 20mm rotary cannon with a >3000 r/m rate of fire couldn't have been built back then. Was there any technological hurdle to building such a CIWS?



 


The following hurdles.
 
Hugh speed slue and elevate two axis stabilized mount. We speak of 60 degrees a second with slam stop and auto-slave track to an optical sight with a man serving it using wheels and and buttons. That is for the sight. He centers and tracks the object.. Then there is the gun which is either geared or analog cabled into the sight to follow the aimer's track lead. it two must have a similar stabilized mount with a similar set of stops and slue rates.
 
Then there is the 30 mm shell. It must be safe to load and feed  at 1000 r/m. Not easy when it is cap fused so it must be base fused to arm when fired and then detonate when it hits an aircraft. That means it has to arm after being subjected to about 20000+ gees of acceleration  at several tens of hundreds of atmospheres of pressure and then go off when subjected to as little as a stop of -5 gee acceleration in 1/50th of a second? at 1000 r/m? We had trouble getting torpedo fuses to work at stop forces of less than -200 gees!
   
There are electric motors, drive gears and screws, hydraulics, belts, feed chutes, etc. An aircraft machine gun by comparison is ridiculously simple. Heck the aircraft of the day is simple!  
 
Better to stick with four recoil operated  guns in a quad mount operated with hand cranks in elevate, and a foot pedal electric driven turntable in slue.  Let the aimer sit in the middle of the gun quad so as he elevates and turns the gun mount does. The  guns should be slam  fed  from top to bottom by slam chute feeds with a cyclic of of 100 r/m per quad mount and the loaders should be the stroingest and toughest kids you can find who can handle 50 mm shells. and shove feed at five at a time from the ready box into the chutes so that the guns can fire through a 30 second engagement. Since there will be three kids to a chute feed queue, that's 12 loaders one pointer and a gun captain or 14 men to serve the mount.
 
Should sound VERY familiar. Its a Bofors quad built right to a 2 inch/50 caliber barrel autocannon .  Its what could be done by the USN  in 1935. (Hiotchkiss 3 pounder)
 
Or try this. 
 
 
 
 
Then use the Bofors 40 mms for close in defense.
 
   
Herald 

 
Quote    Reply

mabie    Thanks Herald   5/21/2009 9:24:13 PM
Thanks for the explanation. You learn something new every day.
 
Quote    Reply

Beazz       5/21/2009 11:19:51 PM
OK, first off reasons 3 and 2 were gallows humor.  Reason 1 is serious.  There is no question that 20mm gatling would be effective against infantry on foot or in thin skinned vehicles.
 
As for your logistics argument, which would you rather have, 6 x M-167 or one A-10, because you cannot support both.
 
Why not? You mean the US military cannot give ~70 ground troops air and land support at the same time?
 
The range advantage is not significant.  The major limitation is your ability to identify potential targets as hostile or non-hostile, something that is frequently very difficult to do until they open fire (or not).
 
The ability to depress the gun below horizontal is probably less of a problem than the inevitable dead zones from a hill top position.  You will also generally not be able to get 360 degree coverage with a single gun without endangering your own people.  And again there is the logistics question:  Which would you rather have for your "hilltop interdiction post", an M-167, or a vehicle hauling a couple of 0.50 cal machine guns, an 81mm mortar, and a load of ammo and supplies?
 
As in anything else, you have to make trade-offs.
 
Still don't understand why our guys cannot have whatever it is they require. We got more land, air and sea transport then the rest of the world combined and we can't keep ~70 troops supplied with whatever it is they need? Especially the weapons they say they need to win.
 
Quote    Reply

WarNerd       5/22/2009 6:19:01 AM
Beazz -- Your response scarcely deserves a reply.
We got more land, air and sea transport then the rest of the world combined and we can't keep ~70 troops supplied with whatever it is they need? Especially the weapons they say they need to win.


Yes, we have more, but we do not have an unlimited amount, and it is also needed in other areas.  Nobody EVER has all that they would like.  That's why the old saw ends with "Generals talk logistics" and over half of the troops in military are involved is moving supplies. 
 
Personally I like the old song that goes "You can't always get what you want.  But if you try some times, you just might find, that you can get what you need."  They do not need a 20mm vulcan to win, there are better alternatives
 
Quote    Reply

Beazz    Warnerd   5/22/2009 11:36:09 AM
 
Beazz -- Your response scarcely deserves a reply.
 
Then don't respond. I didn't ask for any of your arrognat nonsense anyhow. I ask a logical question.
We got more land, air and sea transport then the rest of the world combined and we can't keep ~70 troops supplied with whatever it is they need? Especially the weapons they say they need to win.


Yes, we have more, but we do not have an unlimited amount, and it is also needed in other areas.  Nobody EVER has all that they would like.  That's why the old saw ends with "Generals talk logistics" and over half of the troops in military are involved is moving supplies. 
 
Personally I like the old song that goes "You can't always get what you want.  But if you try some times, you just might find, that you can get what you need."  They do not need a 20mm vulcan to win, there are better alternatives
 
WEll I have no clue what they need or what the weapon in question even looks like. I simply ask why if THEY say they need it we cannot give it? I realize our resources are not unlimited. However, we are not talking about a WWll scenario where the entire armed forces are in action. We are talking about between 2 fronts supplying some ~230K troops with what they need. And I sure don't see how you can tell them they can have support from the air or some ground weapon, but not both. That seems utterly ridiculous to me. Besides, who exactly are you to tell the US Army what it needs or does not need?
 
Now go crawl back in your left wing hole Mr. Warnerd.
 
beazz 
 
Quote    Reply
Pages: 1 2



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2009StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy