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Subject: The Gift From Gaza
SYSOP    12/31/2008 5:15:19 AM
 
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HERALD1357    SYSOPS query.   12/31/2008 9:25:35 AM
Is a review of the above post for malicious content and hate propaganda in order?
 
Herald

 
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SYSOP1    Demise of Qazi   12/31/2008 10:20:54 AM
Seems the current conflict is bringing out the loonies and antiSemites. Second bozo in two days bounced from the boards.
Maybe tomorrow will bring us a hat-trick.
 
Courtesy of your friendly neighborhood SysOps Collective.
 
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RationalThought       12/31/2008 3:56:15 PM
I honestly don't see how the world can view this as anything but Israel defending itself. They gave Hamas many months of warnings to quick firing shots at them yet Hamas still continued to do it. What did they expect? That Israel would say "Oh, that's okay Hamas. We like it when you continually try to kill our citizens. Here, let us open up the boarder like you want so that you can send more suicide bombers. We just love it when they go boom!!". Will someone please try and talk some sense in to these people!! Hamas complains when their citizens get killed yet they make no effort at all in only targeting Israel's military targets. In fact, they only target civilians. Come on world, wake up to this fact as well!
 
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LB    It's called an act of war   12/31/2008 10:57:39 PM
When one launches rocket and mortar attacks on the country next door this is defined as an act of war.  Frankly if the attacks do not stop then it seems clear the next step Israel will take is to enter and bulldoze flat the northernmost portion of Gaza where the homemade rockets are launched from. 
 
Not for nothing but when looks at pictures on CNN of Israeli armored formations prepared to enter Gaza one notices heavy tanks, heavy infantry carriers (MBT chassis), heavy armored combat engineer vehicles, and large armored bulldozers.  Urban combat requires heavy armor.  Not having a real replacement for the M1 and M2 team is going to get US Army soldiers killed one day.  Every other story from Iraq these years is seemingly about the requirement for more armor on everything and yet the US Army in it's wisdom believes it can get away with less armor on it's vehicles (FCS) and having half the armor in it's brigades by halving the number of manuever battalions.  It begs the question if the leadership of the US Army is rational?
 
 

 
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newjarheadean    And the beat goes on...   1/1/2009 4:34:16 PM
AHOY, is the blockade of sea, air, and land into Gaza an act of war? Is an air strike the only option to stop the rocket attacks.? If Gaza is part of Israel why can't Israel help the civilians who are WIA. And if Israel (with all its modern tech) dose not win this thing it should prove to everyone that there is really no use in having a traditional military. G-day!

NO ONE WINS, THIS IS FORGOTTEN. WARS ARE EASY TO START, EXPENSIVE TO CONTINUE, DIFFICULT TO STOP. OFTEN BEGIN WHEN SOMEONE FEELS VICTORY IS ASSURED. THE FIGHT CONTINUES LARGELY BECAUSE OF NATIONAL AND PERSONAL PRIDE. WARS END WHEN ONE OR BOTH SIDES ARE DEVASTATED, DEMORALIZED OR RARELY SUDDENLY ENLIGHTEN BY THE ABSURDITY OF IT ALL.

                                                                                                                                            James Dunnigan

 
 
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Chuang Shyue Chou    Beersheba hit   1/2/2009 1:10:14 AM
My friend lives in Beersheba in the Negev desert. The city is about 40-46 km away. It was hit by at least three rockets. One in a kindergarten, another in a high school. Fortunately, they evacuated the schools a day before.

link

Anyway, he told me that shelters were of little use as there was no time giving that the warning is less than a minute before impact.

He also thinks that the rockets are Grad BM-21-1, an improved type that can hit over 40 km.
 
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Chuang Shyue Chou    Beersheba hit   1/2/2009 1:11:21 AM
typo: 'given that' instead of 'giving that' 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    No equivalent comparison   1/2/2009 2:57:13 PM
AHOY, is the blockade of sea, air, and land into Gaza an act of war? Is an air strike the only option to stop the rocket attacks.? If Gaza is part of Israel why can't Israel help the civilians who are WIA. And if Israel (with all its modern tech) dose not win this thing it should prove to everyone that there is really no use in having a traditional military. G-day! <newjarheadean
 
......Had Palestinians adhered to the six-month Israeli-Palestinian ceasefire, there would have been no cause for Israeli aggression, proportionate or otherwise.  After years of having missiles and Katyusha rockets launched over the Gaza territory into Israeli civilian populations, Israel has finally had enough.  Her patience has run its course.  Her appeasement, tolerance and hope for peace has gotten her nowhere.  The shock and awe campaign she launched this past weekend is an attempt to end the continuation of death and havoc wreaked on Israeli civilians.  The campaign targets only terrorists and Hamas infrastructure, trying as much as possible to avoid hitting civilians.  Israel even warns Palestinians to evacuate before aiming at weapons shelters or Hamas facilities.  It is a difficult situation considering the fact that Hamas has buried its police and training camps amongst populated civilian areas.
In the meantime, Hamas remains steadfast in its position on Israel:  she doesn't have the right to exist. 

Palestinian schools have deleted Israel off all maps and indoctrinate Palestinian youth with hatred of Jews.  The courses omit entirely any mention of the holocaust which prompted the UN vote for making Israel a state.  Instead, they inform the children that Israel and the Jews are occupiers and evildoers.  They even air anti-Israel cartoons, feeding their toddlers diets of loathing and animosity. 

Repeatedly over the years, Palestinians have intentionally and randomly killed Israeli civilians while the world turned a blind eye.  Even as this article was being written, Hamas TV was portraying the death of innocent Jews as cause for celebration.  While continuing to launch multitudes of rockets and mortar shells across the Gaza border, Hamas is vowing victory to its people.  In reality, it is only guaranteeing that Palestinians will suffer more severe consequences.

If the Palestinians were smart, they would rally against their leadership to stop the provocations.  The much complained of fence could be torn down and the gates opened so Palestinians could work, travel, and live in freedom, peace and prosperity.  But this would require unlikely self-reflection of their "religious" ideology and their political policies.  It would necessitate that they focus their energy on helping themselves rather than using their resources toward the destruction and devastation of others.  

But presumably, Palestinians prefer to remain victims so that they can continue to scapegoat Israel and the Jews for their plight. ht***tp://www.americanthinker.com/2009/01/the_cost_of_provocation.html
 
 
This one is squarely the responsibility of the Palestinian people. Their decisions will determine whether they ever live in peace or if they will just be beaten slowly to a pulp.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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newjarheadean    Holly land lol   1/4/2009 11:57:45 AM
AHOY, sorry Rocky, but IMO specking in terms of Israel as she or her is just to much. I also don't believe the Jews or any other race are god's chosen people. IMO one big deference I see with Gaza compared to Lebanon is there is much less division between the people in Gaza. I thing Israel is only making things worse. And like I've sad loosing (not stopping the war) they are proving the uselessness (to sound like Bush making up a word) of having a traditional military at all. I would like to see the Palestinians all move to the west bank and put in a lock system south of Dead sea, widen river flowing south to give access to gulf of Aqaba. Could combine locks with mineral industrial needs too. G-day!  
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Rotten tooth that needs to be drilled...   1/4/2009 1:16:07 PM

AHOY, sorry Rocky, but IMO specking in terms of Israel as she or her is just to much. I also don't believe the Jews or any other race are god's chosen people. IMO one big deference I see with Gaza compared to Lebanon is there is much less division between the people in Gaza. I thing Israel is only making things worse. And like I've sad loosing (not stopping the war) they are proving the uselessness (to sound like Bush making up a word) of having a traditional military at all. I would like to see the Palestinians all move to the west bank and put in a lock system south of Dead sea, widen river flowing south to give access to gulf of Aqaba. Could combine locks with mineral industrial needs too. G-day!  



Thank you for your plucky response. You don't like Israel for reasons that are your own. I and others here understand that
the Gaza is a rotten tooth that needs to have it's poison drilled out. Until Hamas/Hezbollah are dead and gone there will be no peace in the "territories" no matter what Israel does.
 
 
Israel has a right of self defense and I am glad she has opted to use that right to prevent further rocket attacks upon her. We all hope that this is accomplished with as little collateral damage as possible, but the people of Gaza made their bed long ago with Hamas and in the end they will live with or die with Hamas. That is their call, not mine, or Israel's. 
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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HERALD1357    Why punish Jordan for the benefiot of a bunch of descendants of Syrian land thieves?   1/4/2009 1:29:25 PM

AHOY, sorry Rocky, but IMO specking in terms of Israel as she or her is just to much. I also don't believe the Jews or any other race are god's chosen people. IMO one big deference I see with Gaza compared to Lebanon is there is much less division between the people in Gaza. I thing Israel is only making things worse. And like I've sad loosing (not stopping the war) they are proving the uselessness (to sound like Bush making up a word) of having a traditional military at all. I would like to see the Palestinians all move to the west bank and put in a lock system south of Dead sea, widen river flowing south to give access to gulf of Aqaba. Could combine locks with mineral industrial needs too. G-day!  


Why don't you learn some history and GEOGRAPHY before you comment, Ruben?

It would help you immensely before you comment on a subject about which you know NOTHING.
 
Herald
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arodrig6    The real issue...   1/4/2009 1:31:05 PM
One can argue forever about who started the current conflict (Israel attacked, but Hamas fired rockets, but Israel blockaded, but Hamas sent suicide bombers in, but Israel stole the land, but the British etc...) and ultimately it accomplishes nothing. The real concern is not whether Israel can defeat Hamas millitarily, but how they can move towards a real solution of the problem. If every Hamas militant was abducted by aliens tomorrow, it would still leave over a million people in Gaza reliant on international aid, with no economy, and with no real hope for building one and with every incentive to lash out violently. Until these underlying issues are addressed, this currenty conflict will just be another tit-for-tat battle which accomplishes nothing.
 
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HERALD1357       1/4/2009 2:41:57 PM

One can argue forever about who started the current conflict (Israel attacked, but Hamas fired rockets, but Israel blockaded, but Hamas sent suicide bombers in, but Israel stole the land, but the British etc...) and ultimately it accomplishes nothing. The real concern is not whether Israel can defeat Hamas millitarily, but how they can move towards a real solution of the problem. If every Hamas militant was abducted by aliens tomorrow, it would still leave over a million people in Gaza reliant on international aid, with no economy, and with no real hope for building one and with every incentive to lash out violently. Until these underlying issues are addressed, this currenty conflict will just be another tit-for-tat battle which accomplishes nothing.
Monaco and Singapore , both resourceless, built peaceful economies. Your argument flies in the face of reality.
 
All it takes is Human WILL and DESIRE to prosper in peace.
 
The Syrian land thieve descendants deserve what they get. They chose it.
 
Herald
 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    No Moral Equivalence   1/4/2009 5:36:18 PM

One can argue forever about who started the current conflict (Israel attacked, but Hamas fired rockets, but Israel blockaded, but Hamas sent suicide bombers in, but Israel stole the land, but the British etc...) and ultimately it accomplishes nothing. The real concern is not whether Israel can defeat Hamas millitarily, but how they can move towards a real solution of the problem. If every Hamas militant was abducted by aliens tomorrow, it would still leave over a million people in Gaza reliant on international aid, with no economy, and with no real hope for building one and with every incentive to lash out violently. Until these underlying issues are addressed, this currenty conflict will just be another tit-for-tat battle which accomplishes nothing.

Since the Hamas/Hezbollah and their supporters in Iran/Syria/Saudi Arabia are committed to maintaining the conflict at all cost the war will continue, no matter what Israel does, until Israel is dead or Israel exterminates it's enemy. The statement above drips of moral equivalence as if Israel would just leave the Gaza or cease fire or negotiate this would all just go away. Israel has left the Gaza, has honored cease fires, and has attempted to negotiate land for peace. The author of the above statement has simply chosen to forget these historical facts for the sake of his/her political ignroance.
 
Israel has a right of self defense and she is entirely justified in using that right to kill her enemies.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky 
 
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arodrig6       1/4/2009 6:13:46 PM



 

Israel has a right of self defense and she is entirely justified in using that right to kill her enemies.

 

Check Six

 

Rocky 



Rocky,
 
  I agree with your statement. I was not trying to say that there is no moral culpability. Anyone who uses the tactics that Hamas has been employing (both in their attacks on Israel and in how they manage their own economy) are clearly immoral. My point was that pointing fingers doesn't really address the root problem. Israel will succed in killing many Hamas, but that still won't solve anything in 3, 5, or 50 years.
 
 
I agree Israel has a right and duty to defend itself, but it should also be looking for a more lasting peace. 
 
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