Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Weapons of the World Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: M4 in the harsh spotlight, again
Something Meatier    4/20/2008 11:01:21 PM
Colt's grip on military rifle criticized Associated Press, 4/20/08 HARTFORD, Conn. - No weapon is more important to tens of thousands of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan than the carbine rifle. And for well over a decade, the military has relied on one company, Colt Defense of Hartford, Conn., to make the M4s they trust with their lives. Now, as Congress considers spending millions more on the guns, this exclusive arrangement is being criticized as a bad deal for American forces as well as taxpayers, according to interviews and research conducted by The Associated Press. "What we have is a fat contractor in Colt who's gotten very rich off our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan," says Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla. The M4, which can fire at a rate of 700 to 950 bullets a minute, is a shorter and lighter version of the company's M16 rifle first used 40 years ago during the Vietnam War. It normally carries a 30-round magazine. At about $1,500 apiece, the M4 is overpriced, according to Coburn. It jams too often in sandy environments like Iraq, he adds, and requires far more maintenance than more durable carbines. "And if you tend to have the problem at the wrong time, you're putting your life on the line," says Coburn, who began examining the M4's performance last year after receiving complaints from soldiers. "The fact is, the American GI today doesn't have the best weapon. And they ought to." U.S. military officials don't agree. They call the M4 an excellent carbine. When the time comes to replace the M4, they want a combat rifle that is leaps and bounds beyond what's currently available. "There's not a weapon out there that's significantly better than the M4," says Col. Robert Radcliffe, director of combat developments at the Army Infantry Center in Fort Benning, Ga. "To replace it with something that has essentially the same capabilities as we have today doesn't make good sense." Colt's exclusive production agreement ends in June 2009. At that point, the Army, in its role as the military's principal buyer of firearms, may have other gunmakers compete along with Colt for continued M4 production. Or, it might begin looking for a totally new weapon. "We haven't made up our mind yet," Radcliffe says. William Keys, Colt's chief executive officer, says the M4 gets impressive reviews from the battlefield. And he worries that bashing the carbine will undermine the confidence the troops have in it. "The guy killing the enemy with this gun loves it," says Keys, a former Marine Corps general who was awarded the Navy Cross for battlefield valor in Vietnam. "I'm not going to stand here and disparage the senator, but I think he's wrong." In 2006, a non-profit research group surveyed 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan and found 89 percent were satisfied with the M4. While Colt and the Army have trumpeted that finding, detractors say the survey also revealed that 19 percent of these soldiers had their weapon jam during a firefight. And the relationship between the Army and Colt has been frosty at times. Concerned over the steadily rising cost of the M4, the Army forced Colt to lower its prices two years ago by threatening to buy rifles from another supplier. Prior to the warning, Colt "had not demonstrated any incentive to consider a price reduction," then-Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Sorenson, an Army acquisition official, wrote in a November 2006 report. Coburn is the M4's harshest and most vocal critic. But his concern is shared by others, who point to the "SCAR," made by Belgian armorer FN Herstal, and the HK416, produced by Germany's Heckler & Koch, as possible contenders. Both weapons cost about the same as the M4, their manufacturers say. The SCAR is being purchased by U.S. special operations forces, who have their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't. Or won't. "All I know is, we're not having the competition, and the technology that is out there is not in the hands of our troops," says Jack Keane, a former Army general who pushed unsuccessfully for an M4 replacement before retiring four years ago. The dispute over the M4 has been overshadowed by larger but not necessarily more important concerns. When the public's attention is focused on the annual defense budget, it tends to be captured by bigger-ticket items, like the Air Force's F-22 Raptors that cost $160 million each. The Raptor, a radar-evading jet fighter, has never been used in Iraq and Afghanistan. For the troops who patrol Baghdad's still-dangerous neighborhoods or track insurgents along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, there's no piece of gear more critical than the rifles on their shoulders. They go everywhere with them, even to the bathroom and the chow hall. Yet the military has a poor track record for getting high-quality firearms to warfighters. Since the Revolutionary War, mountains of red tape, oversize egos and never-ending arguments o
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest

Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9   NEXT
YelliChink       4/27/2008 12:31:54 AM
www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=12911/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=20.html

Check the site and see how some UK soldiers think about SA80A2. I didn't make that up myself.

 
Quote    Reply

Yimmy       4/27/2008 10:56:26 AM

No abolishing the Iraqi Army in 2003 was a good idea.


No it really wasn't.  The standing Iraqi army may have been a poor formation for traditional force on force actions, however it was successful in providing internal security and order, and in preventing subversion.

Had we let the army stand - and rebuilt it as opposed to attempting to build an army from scratch - we would not be having any of the problems we currently face, and indeed would have left Iraq literally years ago.
 
Quote    Reply

Yimmy       4/27/2008 11:09:33 AM
Yelli - your posts on the SA-80 are wrong - and I can't be bothered to correct all your points.  Simply, the rifle is very reliable, it is extremely accurate, the sights are good, and with the proper drills it is ergonomic and fast to use.

The iron sights are great.  They give a good clear picture.  Their only fault is in their short sight radius.  I, an average shot, can confidently hit figure 11 targets at 400m's with them.  The SUSAT is old, with mostly the tritinum elements gone, however they are near indestructible.  They give good magnification, and the pointer is fast and natural to use.  The emergency battle sights function to aim the weapon rapidly at close quarters.  I can confidently hit targets at 500m's with SUSAT - I have never had the opportunity to try further.

The weapon is not as ergonomic as an AR15, however it is fast and comftable to function when using the correct drills.  The position of the magazine release catch, which you seem to base most of your criticisms on, is perfect.  It allows you to depress the catch at the same time as grasping the magazine with the left hand - so you can rapidly remove it from the rifle and return it to a magazine pouch, prior to removing and fitting a charged magazine.  You don't just drop your magazines on the ground and leave them - battles can last for hours - you need them.  The bolt release catch is also very well placed, so on immediately loading the charged magazine, again your thumb can rapidly operate it, making ready the rifle.  You don't spin the rifle through 90 degrees or any of that crap which you mention.


 
Quote    Reply

JFKY    Yimmy   4/27/2008 12:26:53 PM
No it really wasn't.  The standing Iraqi army may have been a poor formation for traditional force on force actions, however it was successful in providing internal security and order, and in preventing subversion
Sure IF you  define internal security and preventing subversion as rounding up masses of innocent civilians and turning over for torture...or fighting unarmed civilians and executing them...or if you consider the use of tanks and poison gas to be an "internal security function".  And if you consider the imposition of minority Sunni rule as preventing subversion.


Had we let the army stand - and rebuilt it as opposed to attempting to build an army from scratch - we would not be having any of the problems we currently face, and indeed would have left Iraq literally years ago
Sure as I say IF our goal was to replace one nasty Sunni tyrant with ANOTHER nasty Sunni tyrant that would have been a good plan... as that WASN'T the plan the Iraqi Army (Ba'athist) was a rotten foundation for a new state.
 
To do something I normally don't do, Brit-bash, as it seems you're a Brit...if you guys had joined the plan, i.e. replacing Hussein and rebuilding Iraq, rather than simply replacing Hussein with some other authoritarian(s) mayhap Basra and the south wouldn't be the shambles they are.  You guys vaunted "light footprint" seems to have been code for as long as you don't shoot at us we won't ask too many questions about what's going on in town...of course they still shot at you, so it just became hunker down and hope that we can withdraw before chaos settles in and we get blamed.
 
Quote    Reply

Yimmy       4/27/2008 12:49:06 PM
What do you perceive to be our reasons for invading Iraq?  To create a democratic twin of sweet home Alabama?

We invaded because Saddam was a destabilising menace in the region, and posed a risk of using Weapons of Mass Destruction - and of course because Bush's daddy didn't finish the job in round one.

Saddam was an evil man, and I support his removal from power on moral grounds.  However there are numerous evil men in this world, and we don't have the capacity to go after them all (why... why haven't we kicked the doors in after Mugabe?).

Saddam gone, and ergo the threat he posed to the region and us gone, our mission was done.  A Sunni minority running the country is hardly ideal morally - but Iraq is a large complex country with many minorities - the state borders are not truly representative of the local nations - and we are not capable of fixing this.

In all honesty, I think the British in Iraq have done a good job of a bad deal.  I would much rather we had never got involved however - just as we didn't in Vietnam.  I would rather we had voiced political support for America on the world stage, but rather than send soldiers to Iraq, increase and sustain our efforts in Afghanistan - which could have freed up American soldiers for Iraq.


 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Yimmy......   4/27/2008 1:10:36 PM

What do you perceive to be our reasons for invading Iraq?  To create a democratic twin of sweet home Alabama?

We invaded because Saddam was a destabilising menace in the region, and posed a risk of using Weapons of Mass Destruction - and of course because Bush's daddy didn't finish the job in round one.

Saddam was an evil man, and I support his removal from power on moral grounds.  However there are numerous evil men in this world, and we don't have the capacity to go after them all (why... why haven't we kicked the doors in after Mugabe?).

Saddam gone, and ergo the threat he posed to the region and us gone, our mission was done.  A Sunni minority running the country is hardly ideal morally - but Iraq is a large complex country with many minorities - the state borders are not truly representative of the local nations - and we are not capable of fixing this.

In all honesty, I think the British in Iraq have done a good job of a bad deal.  I would much rather we had never got involved however - just as we didn't in Vietnam.  I would rather we had voiced political support for America on the world stage, but rather than send soldiers to Iraq, increase and sustain our efforts in Afghanistan - which could have freed up American soldiers for Iraq.


Just a couple of thoughts on Iraq and Afghanistan in hindsight.

1raq was/is just barely politically doable as enoughj Iraqis still resent IRAN to be politically amenable to an "Iraq" solution.

Afghanistan is a NIGHTMARE.  Not because of the Afghanis who are after all Afghanis [a collection of bandit tribes still trying to become a nation-who were never, prior to this war, worth the trouble to rectify], but because of the Pakistanis, who frankly look the other way, at this banditry that they generate for their own purposes, and in fact SUPPORT both the scum that they invented, who are the Taliban, and tacitly tolerate  Al Qaeda inside their OWN country.  That is the problem that makes Afghanistan almost unwinnable unless we finally do something serious about Pakistan.

And who has the courage, to do that?

Herald
 
Quote    Reply

JFKY       4/27/2008 2:01:54 PM
Saddam gone, and ergo the threat he posed to the region and us gone, our mission was done.  A Sunni minority running the country is hardly ideal morally - but Iraq is a large complex country with many minorities - the state borders are not truly representative of the local nations - and we are not capable of fixing this.
 
Good thing you didn't get put in charge of Germany or Japan in the 1945 era.. "Well Hitler and Tojo are gone. We can all go home now.  I hope you Square heads/Jap's have learned your lesson now?"  Obviously Britain wasn't capable of fixing it (Iraq)....I guess this is kind of like ANY nation, though isn't it, Yimmy?  Of course the UK is DEVOLVING back to it's constituent parts so mayhap you don't see the problem.  Used to be that Great Britain could solve problems and not throw their hands up, again good thing you weren't in charge of British policy in the 1740's, "Oh I don't know what we'll do about the Scots or the Welsh, out the Irish, and how they'll all meld into Great Britain.  Best we not try."   I guess as a denizen of a large, multi-ethnic, multi-cultural. multi-racial state and nation (the US) I don't see making a viable state as impossible...just, very, very hard.


In all honesty, I think the British in Iraq have done a good job of a bad deal.  I would much rather we had never got involved however - just as we didn't in Vietnam.  I would rather we had voiced political support for America on the world stage, but rather than send soldiers to Iraq, increase and sustain our efforts in Afghanistan - which could have freed up American soldiers for Iraq.
 
You did great in taking over southern Iraq...after that not so much.  Certainly not until the Surge and the change in strategy and tactics under Petraeus did the US do a bang-up job either.  Just send your "political support"...good idea.  Next time you've got problems in the Balkans, or if the Hun or the Rooskies come'a knock'n we here in the US will just send our "Political support."  And many of the troops you suppose to send to Afghanistan, you would have supported them how?  You don't have the long-range logistics and the in-theatre logistics support now to do that much...and the tanks and Warriors, they would have just sat at home?  Much of the stuff in Iraq ISN'T suitable for Afghanistan...so basically you'd have committed your light infantry to Afghanistan and left the rest of your army at home, because we wouldn't have seen or been able to use it in Afghanistan.  I guess a better suggestion would have been for you to send you heavy forces to Kosovo and to Bosnia, freeing up US troops in the Balkans.
 
As we've come to see in the US, this is probably the last time we can count on Britain...Britain seems to have decided that it's a part of "Europe" and will just go along with the decline that is Europe.  When I look at history I see Europe as the "Greece" of the Modern era...a area once strong and vibrant, but now content to languish under the protection of the new hegemon, incapable of exerting itself to defens its own interests or even its own identity.

 
Quote    Reply

Yimmy    Oh great.... another idiot on the internet.   4/27/2008 2:47:35 PM

Saddam gone, and ergo the threat he posed to the region and us gone, our mission was done.  A Sunni minority running the country is hardly ideal morally - but Iraq is a large complex country with many minorities - the state borders are not truly representative of the local nations - and we are not capable of fixing this.

 

Good thing you didn't get put in charge of Germany or Japan in the 1945 era.. "Well Hitler and Tojo are gone. We can all go home now.  I hope you Square heads/Jap's have learned your lesson now?"

Your trying to compare an instance of total war, where we were attacked and risked being utterly conquered by states legitimate armed forces, to our recent invasion of Iraq to remove Saddam, and current problems with religious fanatics?

 Obviously Britain wasn't capable of fixing it (Iraq)....I guess this is kind of like ANY nation, though isn't it, Yimmy?  Of course the UK is DEVOLVING back to it's constituent parts so mayhap you don't see the problem.  Used to be that Great Britain could solve problems and not throw their hands up, again good thing you weren't in charge of British policy in the 1740's, "Oh I don't know what we'll do about the Scots or the Welsh, out the Irish, and how they'll all meld into Great Britain.  Best we not try."   I guess as a denizen of a large, multi-ethnic, multi-cultural. multi-racial state and nation (the US) I don't see making a viable state as impossible...just, very, very hard.

What on Earth are you on about?  You really think our tinkering with Iraq is going to resolve the ethnic conflict?  No wonder Americans didn't understand the Balkans.


In all honesty, I think the British in Iraq have done a good job of a bad deal.  I would much rather we had never got involved however - just as we didn't in Vietnam.  I would rather we had voiced political support for America on the world stage, but rather than send soldiers to Iraq, increase and sustain our efforts in Afghanistan - which could have freed up American soldiers for Iraq.
 

You did great in taking over southern Iraq...after that not so much.  Certainly not until the Surge and the change in strategy and tactics under Petraeus did the US do a bang-up job either.  Just send your "political support"...good idea.  Next time you've got problems in the Balkans, or if the Hun or the Rooskies come'a knock'n we here in the US will just send our "Political support." 

Cheers - after Sir Mike Jacksons stellar efforts at restraining your rabid policy in the Balkans - that is probably for the best - he won't be here to save us next time.

And many of the troops you suppose to send to Afghanistan, you would have supported them how?  You don't have the long-range logistics and the in-theatre logistics support now to do that much...

Actually we do.  British defence policy is largely based around being able to sustain one medium, and one small expeditionary conflict.

and the tanks and Warriors, they would have just sat at home? 

We have amphibious assault ships thanks.  They are like big boats, but carry tanks.  But thanks for your concern.

Much of the stuff in Iraq ISN'T suitable for Afghanistan...so basically you'd have committed your light infantry to Afghanistan and left the rest of your army at home, because we wouldn't have seen or been able to use it in Afghanistan.  I guess a better suggestion would have been for you to send you heavy forces to Kosovo and to Bosnia, freeing up US troops in the Balkans.

So, you don't think you can use anything but light infantry in Afghanistan?  Why am I bothering to answer you again?
 

As we've come to see in the US, this is probably the last time we can count on Britain...Britain seems to have decided that it's a part of "Europe" and will just go along with the decline that is Europe.  When I look at history I see Europe as the "Greece" of the Modern era...a area once strong and vibrant, but now content to languish under the protection of the new hegemon, incapable of exerting itself to defens its own interests or even its own identity.

The UK is balanced on the fence between the USA and Europe - and has been for a very long time.  Even that twit Blair was really rather good at it.  But if you don't feel you can count on Britain, that's fine, maybe you wil
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    I don't diagree on the Afghans, but Pakistan is a problem/    4/27/2008 3:52:35 PM

Herald - I think we differ a bit here.  I see Afghanistan as being far more winnable than Iraq.  Iraq is an ethnic mess - with much external support for everyone, especially from Iran.  This is while I see Pakistan as more manageable than Iran - while the Afghan fighters, although full of confidence having beaten back the Soviets, don't have the millions in aid from the CIA and Saudi Arabia this time (although doubtless some Saudi money is getting through) - they simply aren't as capable now as they were fighting the Soviets.   This is not to say I expect we can turn Afghanistan into a functioning Democracy of course - but we can beat the Taliban - and we can support a more favourable regime.

I think Iran is manageable. They no more want a saddam type state or an Al Qaeda state on their border than we do. Common interests might convince the Ayatollahs that a Malarki regime is a good thing for them. The current nonsense I still read as Iran's defensive response to US with the poor British being on the receiving end of it as the push me-pull you. {Those five British hostages inside Iran being used as bargaining chips. for example).

Pakistan [in my opinion] is an out and out terrorist state and defacto enemy. Musharif practically thumbed his nose at us when we asked him to accommodate with Banasir Bhutto. She was assassinated in a state where she COULD have been protected-so I suspect official Pakistani complicity. It may be paranoid of me to think this, but I also read Pakistan's government actions as entirely HOSTILE to US and British intentions in stabilizing  Afghanistan.

Another thing that I wrap my head around is that  Pakistan won't risk either the political or military operations or actions  needed to remove the "sanctuary areas" along their western borders. I don't think they want to do it. I suspect that they find the current setup IDEAL for their own diseased view of their international interests.

The Pakistanis USE their so called "allies" to advance their parochial agendas. WE are their so called "allies".

As long as those bastards continue to permit sanctuary areas along their side of the border we will have the Taliban, THEY invented and the Al Qaeda as well to fight.

No insurrection has been defeated recently that has a secure sanctuary from which they can finance and recruit.

Pakistan is that sanctuary.

Herald

 
Quote    Reply

YelliChink       4/27/2008 4:12:26 PM

Yelli - your posts on the SA-80 are wrong - and I can't be bothered to correct all your points.  Simply, the rifle is very reliable, it is extremely accurate, the sights are good, and with the proper drills it is ergonomic and fast to use.

The iron sights are great.  They give a good clear picture.  Their only fault is in their short sight radius.  I, an average shot, can confidently hit figure 11 targets at 400m's with them.  The SUSAT is old, with mostly the tritinum elements gone, however they are near indestructible.  They give good magnification, and the pointer is fast and natural to use.  The emergency battle sights function to aim the weapon rapidly at close quarters.  I can confidently hit targets at 500m's with SUSAT - I have never had the opportunity to try further.

The weapon is not as ergonomic as an AR15, however it is fast and comftable to function when using the correct drills.  The position of the magazine release catch, which you seem to base most of your criticisms on, is perfect.  It allows you to depress the catch at the same time as grasping the magazine with the left hand - so you can rapidly remove it from the rifle and return it to a magazine pouch, prior to removing and fitting a charged magazine.  You don't just drop your magazines on the ground and leave them - battles can last for hours - you need them.  The bolt release catch is also very well placed, so on immediately loading the charged magazine, again your thumb can rapidly operate it, making ready the rifle.  You don't spin the rifle through 90 degrees or any of that crap which you mention.



I didn't say it's still as reliable as L85A1, and I never question that SA80 is more accurate than all other rifle of same class. Still I will continue to criticize SA80 design. When during normal drill mag change, the SA80's position of mag catch offers no advantage to other bullpups. It's just a matter of how you hold the empty mag, and that's not even considered important. Speed reload is how mag catch should be designed in the first place. It might take some practice, but FAMAS or AUG shooters can hit mag release to drop the empty one with a full one then insert it. The reason that they put mag release behind mag well is to avoid interference with the sling, which some UK soldiers complained (again I am not making this up). The charging handle of FAMAS is on the top, and the AUG's is can be configured to either right or left. Either one is far more ergonomically sound then SA80. Even the Chinese, who replicated almost every error of SA80, didn't make that error. Oh, wait, they did that on QBU-88, which is equivalent to L85A2. I've seen the video of Danish soldiers shooting L85A1, and it's quite unpleasant to reach the other side and kind of clumsy to do so. You either rotate or reach to the right side. I prefer rotate since I don't really know how heavy SUSAT is. Given the experience with M14s in the old days, I would say rotate is probably more of a habit. The bigger charging handle of SA80A2 won't ease much of the uncomfortable move.

The criticism on SA80 iron sight is sound and accurate. You can adjust windage and elevation on M16A2 without any tool (not that you should zero the gun that way). It seems to me that SA80's iron sight does not allow you to adjust windage and elevation without a bullet in your hand. Basically you can zero your rifle at 25m, but good luck shooting figure 11 target at 400m at medium wind and various temperature. The old M16A1 also has the same problem, and that's why they changed it since A2. Then, again, with flattop M16A4, I can throw an ACOG, EOTech or a Leupold on it depending on mission, environment and assigned role in a unit. That is still not happening on an SA80.
 
Quote    Reply
PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9   NEXT



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2012StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy