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Subject: M4 in the harsh spotlight, again
Something Meatier    4/20/2008 11:01:21 PM
Colt's grip on military rifle criticized Associated Press, 4/20/08 HARTFORD, Conn. - No weapon is more important to tens of thousands of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan than the carbine rifle. And for well over a decade, the military has relied on one company, Colt Defense of Hartford, Conn., to make the M4s they trust with their lives. Now, as Congress considers spending millions more on the guns, this exclusive arrangement is being criticized as a bad deal for American forces as well as taxpayers, according to interviews and research conducted by The Associated Press. "What we have is a fat contractor in Colt who's gotten very rich off our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan," says Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla. The M4, which can fire at a rate of 700 to 950 bullets a minute, is a shorter and lighter version of the company's M16 rifle first used 40 years ago during the Vietnam War. It normally carries a 30-round magazine. At about $1,500 apiece, the M4 is overpriced, according to Coburn. It jams too often in sandy environments like Iraq, he adds, and requires far more maintenance than more durable carbines. "And if you tend to have the problem at the wrong time, you're putting your life on the line," says Coburn, who began examining the M4's performance last year after receiving complaints from soldiers. "The fact is, the American GI today doesn't have the best weapon. And they ought to." U.S. military officials don't agree. They call the M4 an excellent carbine. When the time comes to replace the M4, they want a combat rifle that is leaps and bounds beyond what's currently available. "There's not a weapon out there that's significantly better than the M4," says Col. Robert Radcliffe, director of combat developments at the Army Infantry Center in Fort Benning, Ga. "To replace it with something that has essentially the same capabilities as we have today doesn't make good sense." Colt's exclusive production agreement ends in June 2009. At that point, the Army, in its role as the military's principal buyer of firearms, may have other gunmakers compete along with Colt for continued M4 production. Or, it might begin looking for a totally new weapon. "We haven't made up our mind yet," Radcliffe says. William Keys, Colt's chief executive officer, says the M4 gets impressive reviews from the battlefield. And he worries that bashing the carbine will undermine the confidence the troops have in it. "The guy killing the enemy with this gun loves it," says Keys, a former Marine Corps general who was awarded the Navy Cross for battlefield valor in Vietnam. "I'm not going to stand here and disparage the senator, but I think he's wrong." In 2006, a non-profit research group surveyed 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan and found 89 percent were satisfied with the M4. While Colt and the Army have trumpeted that finding, detractors say the survey also revealed that 19 percent of these soldiers had their weapon jam during a firefight. And the relationship between the Army and Colt has been frosty at times. Concerned over the steadily rising cost of the M4, the Army forced Colt to lower its prices two years ago by threatening to buy rifles from another supplier. Prior to the warning, Colt "had not demonstrated any incentive to consider a price reduction," then-Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Sorenson, an Army acquisition official, wrote in a November 2006 report. Coburn is the M4's harshest and most vocal critic. But his concern is shared by others, who point to the "SCAR," made by Belgian armorer FN Herstal, and the HK416, produced by Germany's Heckler & Koch, as possible contenders. Both weapons cost about the same as the M4, their manufacturers say. The SCAR is being purchased by U.S. special operations forces, who have their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't. Or won't. "All I know is, we're not having the competition, and the technology that is out there is not in the hands of our troops," says Jack Keane, a former Army general who pushed unsuccessfully for an M4 replacement before retiring four years ago. The dispute over the M4 has been overshadowed by larger but not necessarily more important concerns. When the public's attention is focused on the annual defense budget, it tends to be captured by bigger-ticket items, like the Air Force's F-22 Raptors that cost $160 million each. The Raptor, a radar-evading jet fighter, has never been used in Iraq and Afghanistan. For the troops who patrol Baghdad's still-dangerous neighborhoods or track insurgents along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, there's no piece of gear more critical than the rifles on their shoulders. They go everywhere with them, even to the bathroom and the chow hall. Yet the military has a poor track record for getting high-quality firearms to warfighters. Since the Revolutionary War, mountains of red tape, oversize egos and never-ending arguments o
 
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flamingknives       4/26/2008 4:00:30 PM
Unless you have an irrational hatred of bullpups there's nothing wrong with the current version of the SA80.

Well, apart from the cost and the availability.
 
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Yimmy       4/26/2008 4:39:46 PM
The L85A2 is an excellent rifle.  The new M16's are also good rifles (is Iraq getting the M16 or M4?).

However, is the M16 really that much better than the AKM to warrant the shift?

From your previous post flaming - I don't agree that a soldier maintaining a rifle can be equated to a factory of specialists producing rifles.  Iraq could produce any rifle under the sun if they had the machinery - however I think their soldiers will get on better with the AKM than the M16.



 
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flamingknives       4/26/2008 5:08:01 PM
Is the Armalite that much better?
Perhaps not on the technical level, but there's always much more than that in equipment procurement.
The Armalites are new and sourced from an ally. They are as cheap as any western rifle is likely to be. They have serial numbers that are recorded. They have ammunition commonality with the Western forces that they are working with. They are distinct from the old traditions of the Iraqi Army. 

Machinery is not the be-all and end-all of producing rifles. You need quality control and that means people. If Iraqi engineers can produce armalites, why can the Iraqi Army not use them? 

At the moment, the IA probably needs to replace its small arms anyway. They have the hand-me-downs that are decades old, so to replace them with Armalites is probably no more arduous than replacing them with new AKs, especially as the new IA is being trained basically from the ground up.
 
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YelliChink       4/26/2008 5:49:54 PM

Unless you have an irrational hatred of bullpups there's nothing wrong with the current version of the SA80.

Well, apart from the cost and the availability.

I have nothing against bullpup, but all thing against wrongly designed firearms. Even after the (partial) fix of reliability problem, there are still to many wrongly designed feature on SA80.

1. Heat dissipation holes on the receiver is still there. The action is still not enclosed. It still sucks in sand and mud-rich environment.

2. Ergonomically, it still sucks. Wrongly placed selector, wrongly placed mag catch and wrongly placed safety button are just simply suck. Funny thing is that FAMAS and AUG was designed before SA80 and got most things right from the start. BTW, AR-15 does have kits for ambidextrous operation. Even the standard issued M16A4 doesn't prevent shooters from operating on left shoulder. It just takes some instruction to use it properly. Not with an SA80, because it's impossible. And I don't get this square cheek rest thing as well.

3. The bayonet also sucks. Why can't they remake bayonet & mounts from old SMLE No. 3 or No. 5? What's this thing about "plug-your-bayonet-into-flash-hider" like phallus pushed into anus? I just don't get it. Sometimes I wonder even the cheaply made spike bayonets of No.4 is way better that the "phallus-in-anus" idea.

4. The iron sight sucks. The reticle of SUSAT is, ugh, so WW2. The irony is that Russians do have a good scope for AKM/-74 which there are scale, elevation and windage indicators on it!

5. Accuracy may not be a good thing for standard issued rifles, because FTE and jamming also come with overly tight chamber. It happened with old Vietnam-era M16, and it is left unsolved on SA80. It would be hilarious if MOD of UK starts to buy ammo  of lower quality.

 
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YelliChink       4/26/2008 6:00:30 PM

The L85A2 is an excellent rifle.  The new M16's are also good rifles (is Iraq getting the M16 or M4?).

However, is the M16 really that much better than the AKM to warrant the shift?

From your previous post flaming - I don't agree that a soldier maintaining a rifle can be equated to a factory of specialists producing rifles.  Iraq could produce any rifle under the sun if they had the machinery - however I think their soldiers will get on better with the AKM than the M16.



I will guess this is a availability issue. The US is probably transfer equipment to IA, and M16s are just in the list. Also, local or national Iraqi agencies might want to purchase specialized weapons that comes with M1913 rail as factory default. The option is not available to AKs at this moment, and things available in US civilian market can not deliver in quantity in time. Recent news about ammo purchase also indicate that there is a shortage of quality 7.62x39 stock, while South Korean, Taiwan, Poland and the Philippines are churning out 5.56 NATO like crazy to fill the demand.
 
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flamingknives       4/26/2008 6:15:47 PM
1. Tests have shown otherwise, as has operational use.
2. a) Where else would you put the magazine release?
    b) The selector is in a poor position, but that's where the action is. The safety catch is no worse than the AKs for ergonomics.
    c) There are two ambidextrous bullpup rifles that I know of. Others require disassembling to make work.
3. Other than the somewhat disturbing imagery, what is wrong with the bayonets?
4. The iron sights are what they are. They were for second line troops. How are they so much worse than the iron sights on an Armalite? The SUSAT is easy to aim and meant that the British Army had practically indestructable optical sights on general issue for two decades before the US did. SUSAT is now being replaced with ACOG and holographic sights.
5. Disproved in tests and operational use. So far. Poor ammunition will muck up any weapon. I doubt the M2 is regarded as unreliable, but the British Army managed to louse it up with dodgy ammo.

Yellichink - have you used one?
 
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Yimmy       4/26/2008 6:16:27 PM

They are distinct from the old traditions of the Iraqi Army. 

Wasn't the one largest mistake of post-war reconstruction, the disbandment of the standing Iraqi army?

Yelli - your post on the SA-80 is wrong.

 
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JFKY       4/26/2008 7:44:23 PM

No abolishing the Iraqi Army in 2003 was a good idea.

1) 1/3 or more of the Army had already "self-demobilized" i.e., deserted, rendering it already out of action;

2) It's officer and NCO Corp s were solidly Sunni and in support of the FORMER regime, not the regime-to-be;

3) It was a lousy army to begin with.  It had fought poorly against the Iranians, collapsed against the US and Coalition forces in 1991 and had been starved of funds and equipment for 12 years leading to its final humiliation inn 2003.  It had no track record of success, no support amongst the majority of the populace (65% Shi'i), having been instrumental in the oppression of the Iraqi people.

 

Bottom-Line: using the Iraqi Army from Saddam Hussein would have been the equivalent of using the Wehrmacht to police post-war Germany, but promising "change."  I might using a Wehrmacht that had lost it's last two wars, very badly and had spent 12 years beating up on the German people....the abolition of the Iraqi Army was a good and necessary idea.

 
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YelliChink       4/26/2008 10:43:02 PM

1. Tests have shown otherwise, as has operational use.
2. a) Where else would you put the magazine release?
    b) The selector is in a poor position, but that's where the action is. The safety catch is no worse than the AKs for ergonomics.
    c) There are two ambidextrous bullpup rifles that I know of. Others require disassembling to make work.
3. Other than the somewhat disturbing imagery, what is wrong with the bayonets?
4. The iron sights are what they are. They were for second line troops. How are they so much worse than the iron sights on an Armalite? The SUSAT is easy to aim and meant that the British Army had practically indestructable optical sights on general issue for two decades before the US did. SUSAT is now being replaced with ACOG and holographic sights.
5. Disproved in tests and operational use. So far. Poor ammunition will muck up any weapon. I doubt the M2 is regarded as unreliable, but the British Army managed to louse it up with dodgy ammo.

Yellichink - have you used one?

1. What test? Never heard of SA80A2 can be put in mud, buried in sand, and put in sand water then pull out without malfunction. It is not to say that M16 can do that as well, but some other rifles did.

2. (a) Anywhere but left side of receiver where the one SA80's is located. More on this latter.
    (b) then how come AUG and FAMAS can do it on one trigger?
    (c) You can still have natural left handers operate left hand rifles, even though they require reassembly. Also, FN       
          F2000 solved that problem once and for all.

3. Get a full mag down the barrel in full auto with bayo on, then you'll get the idea, especially when you try to get it off. This is no joking scenario.

4. Good Iron sights are awesome. What I refer to was iron sights of SA80, both the carrying handle one and the puny tiny itsy bitsy one on SUSAT. They all suck. Why the awesome iron sights from L1A1 and SMLE No.4 cannot be put on SA80 is another myth. AR-15's iron sight system was derived from M1903 and M1917 rifles which was proven in two world wars. If you are good at it, you can hit with it any target within 200m without problem, and 300m if you are really good. Iron sight is a must even on modern rifles, because optics may fail. Iron sight will never fail you. Optics is on another league. There are plenty of choices for ARs, even include SUSAT. For SA80 users, they still only have SUSAT. While you can attach whatever you need on flattop M16A4, British soldiers can put only government issued stuff on it. Even new AUGs have rails. And you are wrong about M16's optics. Cold had made those 4x scopes for M16A1s back in 1960s. These things are already there, and it's US Army who bought only a handful of them. Also remember that AN/PVS-2 was already issued to front line during Vietnam War.

www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=724137&utm_source=nextag&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=657

and yes, you can still use iron sight when you put this thing on AR-15's carry handle. It is a see-through scope mount.

5. I have fired guns older then me with ammunition made before my birth. The only problems I had were common cigar fail to eject and fail to load. Never had I had FTE and jam. If I can, I would really want to bring some Taiwan made M193 POS ammo to SA80A2 just to see how Murphy would do his job.

Given the popularity of SA80 in world market, I don't have the luck to touch a real one. However, after trying one toy replica in local airsoft store, I'd swear anything about ergonomics are true.

BTW, ArmaLite is now a brand trademark of Eagle Arms, who bought it from god-knows whom about ten years ago. The majority of M16/M4 used by all US military branches (including USCG) was made by Colt Firearms.
 
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YelliChink       4/26/2008 11:25:01 PM


Yelli - your post on the SA-80 is wrong.


Name one thing that I was wrong about SA80.

Imagine yourself wearing full combat rig with body armor during a shootout with an empty magazine. Speed reload is required.

Speed reload procedure when you are using M16A4:

1. index finger from right hand hit mag release, empty mag drops out.
2. left hand reach new mag.
3. insert new mag.
4. hit bolt release and get back shooting stuff.

Speed reload procedure when you are using L85A2:

1. hit mag release with left hand finger, the mag drops out.
2. left hand reach new mag.
3. insert new mag.
4. right hand (holding grip) rotate rifle 90 deg with charging handle facing upward.
5. left hand recharge.

So, when using M16, both hands have different jobs so reloading is faster. The same cannot be said with an SA80, since almost all jobs are done by left hand.

BTW, Polish and Israeli AKs somehow have selector operable by right thumb.
 
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