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Subject: M4 in the harsh spotlight, again
Something Meatier    4/20/2008 11:01:21 PM
Colt's grip on military rifle criticized Associated Press, 4/20/08 HARTFORD, Conn. - No weapon is more important to tens of thousands of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan than the carbine rifle. And for well over a decade, the military has relied on one company, Colt Defense of Hartford, Conn., to make the M4s they trust with their lives. Now, as Congress considers spending millions more on the guns, this exclusive arrangement is being criticized as a bad deal for American forces as well as taxpayers, according to interviews and research conducted by The Associated Press. "What we have is a fat contractor in Colt who's gotten very rich off our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan," says Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla. The M4, which can fire at a rate of 700 to 950 bullets a minute, is a shorter and lighter version of the company's M16 rifle first used 40 years ago during the Vietnam War. It normally carries a 30-round magazine. At about $1,500 apiece, the M4 is overpriced, according to Coburn. It jams too often in sandy environments like Iraq, he adds, and requires far more maintenance than more durable carbines. "And if you tend to have the problem at the wrong time, you're putting your life on the line," says Coburn, who began examining the M4's performance last year after receiving complaints from soldiers. "The fact is, the American GI today doesn't have the best weapon. And they ought to." U.S. military officials don't agree. They call the M4 an excellent carbine. When the time comes to replace the M4, they want a combat rifle that is leaps and bounds beyond what's currently available. "There's not a weapon out there that's significantly better than the M4," says Col. Robert Radcliffe, director of combat developments at the Army Infantry Center in Fort Benning, Ga. "To replace it with something that has essentially the same capabilities as we have today doesn't make good sense." Colt's exclusive production agreement ends in June 2009. At that point, the Army, in its role as the military's principal buyer of firearms, may have other gunmakers compete along with Colt for continued M4 production. Or, it might begin looking for a totally new weapon. "We haven't made up our mind yet," Radcliffe says. William Keys, Colt's chief executive officer, says the M4 gets impressive reviews from the battlefield. And he worries that bashing the carbine will undermine the confidence the troops have in it. "The guy killing the enemy with this gun loves it," says Keys, a former Marine Corps general who was awarded the Navy Cross for battlefield valor in Vietnam. "I'm not going to stand here and disparage the senator, but I think he's wrong." In 2006, a non-profit research group surveyed 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan and found 89 percent were satisfied with the M4. While Colt and the Army have trumpeted that finding, detractors say the survey also revealed that 19 percent of these soldiers had their weapon jam during a firefight. And the relationship between the Army and Colt has been frosty at times. Concerned over the steadily rising cost of the M4, the Army forced Colt to lower its prices two years ago by threatening to buy rifles from another supplier. Prior to the warning, Colt "had not demonstrated any incentive to consider a price reduction," then-Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Sorenson, an Army acquisition official, wrote in a November 2006 report. Coburn is the M4's harshest and most vocal critic. But his concern is shared by others, who point to the "SCAR," made by Belgian armorer FN Herstal, and the HK416, produced by Germany's Heckler & Koch, as possible contenders. Both weapons cost about the same as the M4, their manufacturers say. The SCAR is being purchased by U.S. special operations forces, who have their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't. Or won't. "All I know is, we're not having the competition, and the technology that is out there is not in the hands of our troops," says Jack Keane, a former Army general who pushed unsuccessfully for an M4 replacement before retiring four years ago. The dispute over the M4 has been overshadowed by larger but not necessarily more important concerns. When the public's attention is focused on the annual defense budget, it tends to be captured by bigger-ticket items, like the Air Force's F-22 Raptors that cost $160 million each. The Raptor, a radar-evading jet fighter, has never been used in Iraq and Afghanistan. For the troops who patrol Baghdad's still-dangerous neighborhoods or track insurgents along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, there's no piece of gear more critical than the rifles on their shoulders. They go everywhere with them, even to the bathroom and the chow hall. Yet the military has a poor track record for getting high-quality firearms to warfighters. Since the Revolutionary War, mountains of red tape, oversize egos and never-ending arguments o
 
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Herald12345    You asked for an apple.   5/2/2008 6:26:37 PM

Herald, I asked for "an instance of any bullpup injuring the user by means of a breech explosion". I was after a discriminator between bullpups and conventional rifles from a safety point of view. The G22 article cited could equally have occurred in a conventional rifle. The question was that is this more dangerous in a bullpup than a conventional rifle? As no injury occurred, it doesn't prove it either way.

I gave you a Macintosh. The G-22 is a bullpup with a known failure tree at the breach.
the feed mechanism is suspect, the extractor fails and the slide fails to  move forward  properly to engage a gas seal. If the bullet, itself fails, you will have pieces of casing coming out the ejector port along with the gas blowback. Not safe.

I was being generous, as it is still an unconfined explosion closer to the firer's face than it would be in a conventional rifle, if not the breech explosion originally mentioned.

I am being descriptive. I tell you exactly what I see described as the function failure in THIS case.  This is not a mechanically well-made bullpup rifle by reputation, and I believe the ammunition was mismatched in this case: its a rifle that is finicky about that and can BURST apart.

As for rockets, the efflux is part of normal operation. However, the tubes can and do fail (I can think of several instances that have endangered the firer) It's not contained as much as a conventional firearm but it's still a big explosion, it's right next to the users head and the two are separated by a fibre composite thinner than a rifle barrel wall.

I simply pointed out that launcher tube was irrelevant. Its the rocket's explosion that is  the heartburn. The tube launcher is just additional  fragmentation the doctors dig out of you after the corpsman/medic puts the bonfire that is you out, and evacuates you to an aid station..
Yeah, FK, I have a sick  sense of the sublime that crosses over into the ridiculous. .

Herald 

 
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YelliChink       5/2/2008 6:54:05 PM



Herald, I asked for "an instance of any bullpup injuring the user by means of a breech explosion". I was after a discriminator between bullpups and conventional rifles from a safety point of view. The G22 article cited could equally have occurred in a conventional rifle. The question was that is this more dangerous in a bullpup than a conventional rifle? As no injury occurred, it doesn't prove it either way.

I gave you a Macintosh. The G-22 is a bullpup with a known failure tree at the breach.
the feed mechanism is suspect, the extractor fails and the slide fails to  move forward  properly to engage a gas seal. If the bullet, itself fails, you will have pieces of casing coming out the ejector port along with the gas blowback. Not safe.


I was being generous, as it is still an unconfined explosion closer to the firer's face than it would be in a conventional rifle, if not the breech explosion originally mentioned.


I am being descriptive. I tell you exactly what I see described as the function failure in THIS case.  This is not a mechanically well-made bullpup rifle by reputation, and I believe the ammunition was mismatched in this case: its a rifle that is finicky about that and can BURST apart.


As for rockets, the efflux is part of normal operation. However, the tubes can and do fail (I can think of several instances that have endangered the firer) It's not contained as much as a conventional firearm but it's still a big explosion, it's right next to the users head and the two are separated by a fibre composite thinner than a rifle barrel wall.

I simply pointed out that launcher tube was irrelevant. Its the rocket's explosion that is  the heartburn. The tube launcher is just additional  fragmentation the doctors dig out of you after the corpsman/medic puts the bonfire that is you out, and evacuates you to an aid station..


Yeah, FK, I have a sick  sense of the sublime that crosses over into the ridiculous. .

Herald 

>, look at the picture of bloody hand. Remember it was a M1A, and imagine the damage on your face. It is potentially dangerous, and could cause loss of hearing, loss of sight or killed (could).

When shoulder-fired rockets explode, well, we assemble conscripts with bowls and chop sticks to collect body parts. I've heard bad things about recoilless rifle, too. However, that kind of failure is quite rare, so rare that I never heard of it. The truth is that rocket propellant don't burn as fast as firearms propellant, and the environment is open rather than close in the case of guns and cannons, thus the pressure don't build up. Recoilless rifles are more dangerous.


 
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Herald12345    Remember what I said about bullet mismatch.   5/2/2008 9:11:23 PM







Herald, I asked for "an instance of any bullpup injuring the user by means of a breech explosion". I was after a discriminator between bullpups and conventional rifles from a safety point of view. The G22 article cited could equally have occurred in a conventional rifle. The question was that is this more dangerous in a bullpup than a conventional rifle? As no injury occurred, it doesn't prove it either way.

I gave you a Macintosh. The G-22 is a bullpup with a known failure tree at the breach.
the feed mechanism is suspect, the extractor fails and the slide fails to  move forward  properly to engage a gas seal. If the bullet, itself fails, you will have pieces of casing coming out the ejector port along with the gas blowback. Not safe.




I was being generous, as it is still an unconfined explosion closer to the firer's face than it would be in a conventional rifle, if not the breech explosion originally mentioned.




I am being descriptive. I tell you exactly what I see described as the function failure in THIS case.  This is not a mechanically well-made bullpup rifle by reputation, and I believe the ammunition was mismatched in this case: its a rifle that is finicky about that and can BURST apart.




As for rockets, the efflux is part of normal operation. However, the tubes can and do fail (I can think of several instances that have endangered the firer) It's not contained as much as a conventional firearm but it's still a big explosion, it's right next to the users head and the two are separated by a fibre composite thinner than a rifle barrel wall.

I simply pointed out that launcher tube was irrelevant. Its the rocket's explosion that is  the heartburn. The tube launcher is just additional  fragmentation the doctors dig out of you after the corpsman/medic puts the bonfire that is you out, and evacuates you to an aid station..




Yeah, FK, I have a sick  sense of the sublime that crosses over into the ridiculous. .

Herald 


>, look at the picture of bloody hand. Remember it was a M1A, and imagine the damage on your face. It is potentially dangerous, and could cause loss of hearing, loss of sight or killed (could).

When shoulder-fired rockets explode, well, we assemble conscripts with bowls and chop sticks to collect body parts. I've heard bad things about recoilless rifle, too. However, that kind of failure is quite rare, so rare that I never heard of it. The truth is that rocket propellant don't burn as fast as firearms propellant, and the environment is open rather than close in the case of guns and cannons, thus the pressure don't build up. Recoilless rifles are more dangerous.



Source citation.


There is a function failure that is brass/bullet SIZE and load specific. Its not just gas pressure that causes a rifle breach mechanism structure failure: though that contributes. Mechanical load overburden from sheer forces can cause mechanical failure that leads to improper feed, seat, seal, alignment and cyclic operation.

[quoting]

On Reloading for US Gas Operated Service Rifles

by Clint McKee, with additional thoughts from Walt Kuleck & R.J. Suckow


http://www.fulton-armory.com/wpeF.jpg" alt="" align="middle" border="0" height="240" width="320">

Hi, Clint! Why don't you condone reloading for the US Gas Operated Service Rifles?

This should not be an honest surprise for anyone. Forgive my ignorance, but what firearms manufacturer recommends reloads, or warrants the product for such? In all the world? One might reasonably ask why this is so. Well, there's all the obvious st

 
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flamingknives       5/3/2008 4:59:43 AM
Herald, 

A little off-topic, but why mPa? I've seen other Americans do the same and was wondering if it was common. The prefix is case sensitive so you're effectively saying milli-Pascals rather than Mega-Pascals.

Now we've got some evidence of a conventional rifle exploding and doing harm to the user, but we still don't have a bullpup doing the same that would indicate that a bullpup design was more dangerous.

Ammunition is definitely an issue. There was a problem last year with defective ammunition jamming the British Army M2s in Helmand and the infamous Pakistani 9mm in the 1980s which failed to function in the Sterling SMG.

Rocket explosions are rare, but like I said, I can think of two or three instances off-hand, although I have a bit of an advantage there, being as I work for people who make launch tubes.

The thing to consider is that the breech is closer to the face, but the structure is different. It's possible that the area between breech and user is reinforced to limit injury in the case of breech explosion.
 
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Herald12345       5/3/2008 8:52:34 PM

Herald, 

A little off-topic, but why mPa? I've seen other Americans do the same and was wondering if it was common. The prefix is case sensitive so you're effectively saying milli-Pascals rather than Mega-Pascals.

That was me being STUPID. I often do that carelessly when I type , FK . Its  something I need to watch. No excuses.

Now we've got some evidence of a conventional rifle exploding and doing harm to the user, but we still don't have a bullpup doing the same that would indicate that a bullpup design was more dangerous.

I would say a bullpup designer, who was competent, would try to design a deflector plate; or overbuild the breach to some extent to reduce the hazard.  Little helps if you mechanically overburden the firing chamber or somehow stopper the barrel with a mechanical obstruction. The rifle will burst apart.  

Ammunition is definitely an issue. There was a problem last year with defective ammunition jamming the British Army M2s in Helmand and the infamous Pakistani 9mm in the 1980s which failed to function in the Sterling SMG.

There are too many examples of the weapon function being mechanically entirely satisfactory due to the ammunition either being under or over energetic for the weapon that was supposed to use it.  Then there is the SIZING question.  My favorites are the US Navy 1.1 inch machine cannon which used a cartridge that was insufficiently powerful to work the action, and the HS404 20 mm which the US reverse engineered and failed to get the dimensions exactly right: so that the auto-cannon would jam as a cannon shell would fail to fire,  because the  firing chamber was about 1 millimeter too LONG for the cannon shell we made; so the firing mechanism would not engage properly. ROTFLMAO at that one. British engineers found the fault in the example we sent them and recommended an OBVIOUS fix, but NATIONAL PRIDE intervened.

Rocket explosions are rare, but like I said, I can think of two or three instances off-hand, although I have a bit of an advantage there, being as I work for people who make launch tubes.

Ah then; I preach to the choir.

The thing to consider is that the breech is closer to the face, but the structure is different. It's possible that the area between breech and user is reinforced to limit injury in the case of breech explosion.

I could almost guarantee that.
Herald

 
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