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Subject: Stealth detecting radar
Gerry    3/19/2008 6:24:37 PM
Rumers seem to abound on new Russian radars that can detect steathy aircraft. I.E. S-500 ADS, Yet I cannot find any definitive articles that deal with the technology. Is this a myth (born from wishful thinking) or real technology in the works?
 
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Herald12345       3/19/2008 6:29:49 PM

Rumers seem to abound on new Russian radars that can detect steathy aircraft. I.E. S-500 ADS, Yet I cannot find any definitive articles that deal with the technology. Is this a myth (born from wishful thinking) or real technology in the works?

A radar can detect a LO aircraft at almost point blank range or develop a smear track at longer ranges. Russians and everyone else try to get around the physics problem.

Don't panic. Physics is physics.

Herald


 
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Mike From Brielle       3/20/2008 5:17:27 PM
These rumors have been going around for quite awhile.  Typically they involve some sort of Wide bandwidth signal.  Who knows in reality.  If I did know I wouldn't post it here;)
 
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Carl S       3/30/2008 6:18:48 PM
"Who knows in reality.  If I did know I wouldn't post it here;)"

If I did I'd post in someone elses name :))

The ultimate goal is to get a good enough return signal for a AA weapon to guide on.  That can be done with 'adjusted' fire control radars, if they know where to look.  Figuring out where to aim them has typically involved experiments with a wide variety emitters, and trying many angles or aspects to the assumed flight path.  Using multiple emitters to try to create a 'group' of returns allows the fire control program to search for a pattern that might be the target and make prediction on what it should look for in the returns of the next second.  Nothing earthshakingly new in that.  The computers of the Ageis system uses information form multiple ships and aircraft to look for patterns that will ID a signal as a probable target.  In the S2 or G2 HQ section we would do the same at 'bio speed' (days not milliseconds), taking in reports from many recon observations and finding the pattern in enemy movement. 
 
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WarNerd       3/31/2008 4:41:23 AM
I heard once that 'backscatter' or 'over-the-horizon' radar could track the Stealth Fighter because in looks down on the target (by bouncing the signal off the ionosphere) and using a wave length that was approximately the wing span of the plane (resonance).  The problems with are:
 
1)   The transmitter antenna and power input required are HUGE.
2)   The system has a minimum range of 1000 miles.
3)   The system is not accurate enough to guide missiles.
 
Russia is still big enough that there could be several of these system providing overlapping coverage for early warning and to pass on approximate target location to local tracking systems.
 
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FJV       3/31/2008 12:30:43 PM
I have seen some tips on detecting stealth on the internet. This was about detecting the F117 and was related to the method used to shoot that F117 in former Yugoslavia, which was done with Russian equipment.

Maybe that's the reason the F117 was retired. This could also be a reason for not buying too many F22's.



 
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Wicked Chinchilla       3/31/2008 3:44:10 PM
The F117 shoot down had much less to do with the equipment and skill of the Serbs and much more to do with stupid planning.  The bombers came in through the same flight path each night due to the terrain.  Bad planning, not secret anti-stealth tech, shot-down that Night Hawk.
 
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Yimmy       3/31/2008 3:52:48 PM
The aircraft must have been semi-detectable to the Serb sensors, for the Serbs to realise they were constantly using the same flight path - which they needed to know accurately for the positioning of the optically guided SA-3 battery.
The F117 shoot down had much less to do with the equipment and skill of the Serbs and much more to do with stupid planning.  The bombers came in through the same flight path each night due to the terrain.  Bad planning, not secret anti-stealth tech, shot-down that Night Hawk.



 
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displacedjim       4/7/2008 1:04:37 PM
Gerry, yes it is a myth.
WarNerd, that's a reasonable theory.  Sure Russia is still big enough, and "could" is the operative word in your sentence.  Maybe someday they will.

 

FJV, I doubt F-117 retirement in 2007 had anything to do with the shoot-down in Serbia in 1998.  The airframes were getting old.  We lost one in combat and six in peacetime.  See below.

 

Wicked, the shoot-down actually had a lot to do with the skill of the Serbs.  They fought the war in survival mode, constantly relocating their SAMs (at least once a day), and rarely turning on their local acquisition radars unless they had other indications that NATO aircraft were nearby.  This allowed them to avoid getting killed and remain a threat throughout the war.  Of course, it also prevented them from getting more than just a few shots and basically ceded air superiority to us, allowing us to bomb our targets with near-impugnity.  But it also meant we had to provide SEAD throughout the 78-day campaign.

 

Just as Herald said above, and I and many others have said before, LO is not invisibility.  Even a SPOON REST or FLAT FACE may well be able to detect, and even a LOW BLOW may well be able to lock onto, an LO aircraft when it's only a dozen miles away.  No further mental gymnastics are necessary to explain the event than that.

 

 
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le_corsaire       4/8/2008 4:33:21 AM


... Even a SPOON REST or FLAT FACE may well be able to detect, and even a LOW BLOW may well be able to lock onto, an LO aircraft when it's only a dozen miles away ...
 


Which is excatly the effect that concepts like celldar are using. Physics is physics - however it depends on how you use it ...

 
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le_corsaire       4/8/2008 5:00:30 AM
what concerns the Russia "new tech stealth detection" ... it is not that "even" a spoon rest can detect a stealth, but especially these old-style long wave/low frequency systems can detect stealth aircrafts. After the reunion of Germany, there were plenty of old Russian systems in East Germany still deployed. We had some chance to play with that equipment (gues it was bar locks) ... and it was amazing what you could get out of this old crap ... we never had the chance trying to track a B2 or so, however, these systems are very resistant to jamming, so the game here is not so much on the sensor side, but on the information processing part.
 
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