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Subject: Red dot scope
GOP    3/1/2008 3:17:12 PM
Got a question regarding red dot scopes. I have a Yugoslavian M70 (ak variant) that is very accurate as far as AK's go (2 inch groups at 100 yards), and Im thinking of adding a red dot scope to it (using Ultimak's rail system). My question is, what do you guys recommend as far as optics, etc? I am looking at a Kobra, a Aimpoint, EOTech, and a Trijicon. Anyone have any recommendations, advice, etc?
 
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Yimmy       3/10/2008 5:11:43 PM
GOP, you don't have to shoot every week to prevent skill-fade.  You don't forget how to fire a rifle - it isn't rocket science.  You could not fire for a whole year, and after half a day of group and zeroing and some application shoots you would be good as ever.
 
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Horsesoldier       3/10/2008 10:31:23 PM

Thanks for the recommendation to 'Get off the x', it's pretty awesome. I already had a groupee account, so Im on over there. I also see that Mookie is a big time contributer over there and very highly respected. Wonder if they know his history?
 
I think he sometimes instructs at Tactical Response courses.  As well as apparently doing some mixology and bar tending after the training day is over . . .
 
1) You ever been to Frontsight academy? Im going to Vegas later this year, and would love to either take their 2 day rifle course of their 4 day rifle course, but Im only 18. I don't know if I'm old enough yet or not. In the meantime, Im gonna buy Suarez's (sp) book 'Tactical rifle' and do what I can at home to sort of 'prepare' for his course.
I haven't.  I have the vague goal of doing some classes at the better known shooting schools, or with the better known subject matter experts (Gunsite, Frontsight, Pat Rogers, Clint Smith, etc.), but lining up the time off from work for classes has proven to be a bit of a trick to date.
 
Getting into USPSA, three gun matches, etc., that you mentioned earlier in the thread is probably another good way to get spun up for classes -- some of the guys who compete are very much into playing the game, but some are serious and seriously (real world) skilled shooters.  I'd imagine you can pick up a lot of pointers and quality training by seeing what they do and taking any advice they offer to heart.
 
2) Have you ever tried bowling pins as targets? I can get 10 for $30, compared to $30 for 100 uspsa targets. Will bowling pins hold up to many shots or not?
 
We don't at my unit, due to some potential issues with how they behave with some lead already in them when shot.  We mostly shoot paper or steel.
 
3) Do you have any recommendations on Chest rigs or anything like that? I need something cheap, and am considering buying this: link It holds 2 30 round AK mags and has room for a few other things, so it looks like a solid deal.
 
I'd say check eBay if that's an option -- I think you can get a pretty good set up for less money ($25-30 range).  The triple M4/M16 mag pouches on a generic/no-name sort of Rhodesian style chest rig (or its more expensive name brand counterparts) will each hold two AK mags with no fuss.  I haven't been hugely impressed with most of the dedicated AK pouches, vests, etc., out there that I've seen (though I definitely haven't gotten my hands on everything out there), but then I prefer my ready mags in single mag, shock cord retained pouches like Tactical Tailor and various others make (quick, and you don't break ribs taking a fast prone like with triples mag pouches), and I don't think anyone makes anything comparable for the AK at this time.  Anyway, I don't think most options for LBE/vests/etc with AKs will do much better than a basic Rhodesian rig.
 
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GOP       3/11/2008 12:37:40 AM
I think he sometimes instructs at Tactical Response courses.  As well as apparently doing some mixology and bar tending after the training day is over . . .
 
Haha, I have no doubt of that. People on GOTX seem to like him alot though, and I have no doubt he's a personable and very smart guy. But, I think his morals may be a little out of check.
 
I haven't.  I have the vague goal of doing some classes at the better known shooting schools, or with the better known subject matter experts (Gunsite, Frontsight, Pat Rogers, Clint Smith, etc.), but lining up the time off from work for classes has proven to be a bit of a trick to date.
 
Getting into USPSA, three gun matches, etc., that you mentioned earlier in the thread is probably another good way to get spun up for classes -- some of the guys who compete are very much into playing the game, but some are serious and seriously (real world) skilled shooters.  I'd imagine you can pick up a lot of pointers and quality training by seeing what they do and taking any advice they offer to heart.
 
Yeah, and for me I have the whole money issue to worry about. But, I should have the money together by the time I vacation in Vegas again next, which will be in May most likely.
 
I honestly don't have a clue how to train for the USPSA, which is why I was gonna go to Frontsight first and read Saurez's book. I'd really love to compete in it, I love to shoot and I love to compete, but my skills are waaaaaaaaaaay off I'd say. On the bright side though, I have been doing a ton of dry fire practice (after searching GOTX and the fistfire forum), so that should help my pure marksmanship some.
 
We don't at my unit, due to some potential issues with how they behave with some lead already in them when shot.  We mostly shoot paper or steel.
 
Hmm, Im curious about this. I shoot all lead bullets (heck, it's practice ammo and cheap lol), so do you think it'd be dangerous to shoot?
 
I'd say check eBay if that's an option -- I think you can get a pretty good set up for less money ($25-30 range).  The triple M4/M16 mag pouches on a generic/no-name sort of Rhodesian style chest rig (or its more expensive name brand counterparts) will each hold two AK mags with no fuss.  I haven't been hugely impressed with most of the dedicated AK pouches, vests, etc., out there that I've seen (though I definitely haven't gotten my hands on everything out there), but then I prefer my ready mags in single mag, shock cord retained pouches like Tactical Tailor and various others make (quick, and you don't break ribs taking a fast prone like with triples mag pouches), and I don't think anyone makes anything comparable for the AK at this time.  Anyway, I don't think most options for LBE/vests/etc with AKs will do much better than a basic Rhodesian rig.
 
Thanks, I'll definitely check that out. I don't have alot of money to drop on equipment at the moment, and the cheaper the better.
 
Another quick question: When Im at the range, I typically have it to myself and am able to train however I want. When I work mag changes, do you think it's OK to drop them on the ground? Or will that damage them? I wanna make training as realistic as possible, and move quickly on them.
 
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Horsesoldier       3/11/2008 10:55:12 AM


I honestly don't have a clue how to train for the USPSA, which is why I was gonna go to Frontsight first and read Saurez's book. I'd really love to compete in it, I love to shoot and I love to compete, but my skills are waaaaaaaaaaay off I'd say. On the bright side though, I have been doing a ton of dry fire practice (after searching GOTX and the fistfire forum), so that should help my pure marksmanship some.
 
From what I hear from guys I know who do a lot of IPSC, IDPA, etc., there tends to be a pretty good spread of ability levels at most of your local shooting club kind of meets.  I don't think anyone expects competitors at those kind of venues to be all looking like Tier One guys or something, just to be competent and safe with their weapons. 
 
If there's some club that does meets in your area, I'd say check one out as a spectator a time or two and see if it's something you've got the skills to try your hand at.  Being on the clock, scored, and competing against other shooters should give you a degree of self-induced stress that at least gets you a bit of a hint of how your mind and body perform with a firearm under real fight/flight stress.
 
Hmm, Im curious about this. I shoot all lead bullets (heck, it's practice ammo and cheap lol), so do you think it'd be dangerous to shoot?
 
Honestly, I don't know.  The use of bowling pins at my present unit stopped back when I was Big Army, so I've not had any personal experience with them.  My understanding is that the concern over their use is a "just might possibly" kind of worst case thing, not something that was actually happening with any real frequency, but I'm definitely not an expert on the topic.
 
 Thanks, I'll definitely check that out. I don't have alot of money to drop on equipment at the moment, and the cheaper the better.
 
And keep in mind that for strictly range work, the cheaper stuff is usually just as good as the more expensive stuff.  Any time someone comes out with some revolutionary new assault vest or whatever, it's being copied in Hong Kong inside a week or two, so the main thing you are paying for with better quality name brand kit is durability and quality of materials, rather than better layout and ergonomics (again, usually). 
 
Another quick question: When Im at the range, I typically have it to myself and am able to train however I want. When I work mag changes, do you think it's OK to drop them on the ground? Or will that damage them? I wanna make training as realistic as possible, and move quickly on them.
 
Short answer is that dropping them on the ground should be fine.  Are you shooting on gravel/dirt or on a hard concrete pad?  With AK mags it really should make no difference.  With an AR, I might not drop my mags onto concrete.
 
Longer answer would begin with the question of how you're doing your AK reloads.  There are some techniques that are quite a bit faster than others.
 
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GOP       3/11/2008 12:13:55 PM
Yeah, I'm thinking about calling or emailing one of the USPSA guys in my area. There are 2 witihin 40 minutes of me, which is awesome for me. Im certainly not expecting to be at the Tier 1 level of competition or anything, I mean I have no formal training and no competitive experience in any shooting sports. Just looking to have fun and improve my shooting skills.
 
As far as how I'm doing my reloads or mag changes, Im basically doing a speedload I believe. If I remember correctly, I believe a tactical reload is where you have rounds still in the mag and you are changing a fresh mag in and keeping the old, used mag for use later. The technique is sloppy, but getting better. Im practicing it alot throughout the day, and after your recommendations and some things I saw on GOTX, I now have a dedicated dry fire routine I do daily. I find the reloads difficult on the AK alot more than on the AR, as (well, to me) it's harder to find the slot and insert the mag effectively. However, I am keeping my weapon and head up to maintain situational awareness. Im dropping the mags on grass most of the time. The mag change routine I do with a hot weapon is: 1 shot + mag change + load to chamber/rack charging hammer +  1 shot.
 
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Horsesoldier       3/11/2008 6:34:54 PM

Yeah, I'm thinking about calling or emailing one of the USPSA guys in my area. There are 2 witihin 40 minutes of me, which is awesome for me. Im certainly not expecting to be at the Tier 1 level of competition or anything, I mean I have no formal training and no competitive experience in any shooting sports. Just looking to have fun and improve my shooting skills.

 

As far as how I'm doing my reloads or mag changes, Im basically doing a speedload I believe. If I remember correctly, I believe a tactical reload is where you have rounds still in the mag and you are changing a fresh mag in and keeping the old, used mag for use later. The technique is sloppy, but getting better. Im practicing it alot throughout the day, and after your recommendations and some things I saw on GOTX, I now have a dedicated dry fire routine I do daily.  The mag change routine I do with a hot weapon is: 1 shot + mag change + load to chamber/rack charging hammer +  1 shot.



As far as how I'm doing my reloads or mag changes, Im basically doing a speedload I believe. If I remember correctly, I believe a tactical reload is where you have rounds still in the mag and you are changing a fresh mag in and keeping the old, used mag for use later.
 
Yeah, that's pretty much in keeping with most people's terminology these days. 
 
Reloading on an empty mag, I'd always go for just dropping the mag on the ground to get your primary back up and in the fight as fast as possible (opinions vary on this, but it's one of those conventional unit vs SOF unit sort of things for the most part).  Then, if the situation permits, you can always take a knee to grab your discarded mag, but the important thing is you're not screwing around delaying getting your gun back up and running.
 
With a reduced capacity reload/tactical reload, you want to maintain control of both mags as you reload.  The shooting focused discussion groups may mention some good techniques for doing this.  On an AK the best approach is a bit harder to explain than it is to do, but basically it's a one handed drill with your non-firing hand holding both mags, the fresh one sitting higher up in your grip than the expended one.
 
I find the reloads difficult on the AK alot more than on the AR, as (well, to me) it's harder to find the slot and insert the mag effectively.
 
It isn't just you.  The AK is decidedly unfriendly on mag changes compared to an AR, and doesn't get any better when you add in stress to the equation. 
 
Clearing the empty mag is pretty easy -- just use your fresh mag to slap the mag release catch and then knock the old mag out of the mag well in one motion (works pretty well, and won't hurt steel AK mags one bit), but then getting the new magazine into the magwell is a recurring PITA for most everyone.  Practice, and lots of it, is really the only answer.
 
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YelliChink       3/16/2008 10:58:59 PM
If my hunch is correct, GOP, you already have some bullet time during the weekend. Tell us how you think about your new stuff. Bad thing, good thing and something.
 
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Yimmy       3/17/2008 2:58:41 PM
Horsesoldier, given your statement concerning dropping spent magazines on the ground or not being a regular vs SF type argument - what do your SF guys do when they have dropped all their magazines on the ground?

Do you get your rounds resupplied in ready filled fresh magazines?


 
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Horsesoldier       3/17/2008 3:23:36 PM

Horsesoldier, given your statement concerning dropping spent magazines on the ground or not being a regular vs SF type argument - what do your SF guys do when they have dropped all their magazines on the ground?

Do you get your rounds resupplied in ready filled fresh magazines?




The logic is not necessarily to regard magazines as a disposable asset (though magazines are much cheaper than soldiers, in final analysis), it's to emphasize the absolute necessity in a gun fight of getting a dry gun back up and running and back into the fight as rapidly as possible.  You can always police up empty magazines after you've reloaded or after you've won the gun fight, but on the other hand you're out of the fight however long your weapon is without a fresh magazine.  It might only make a couple seconds difference one way or the other, but a couple seconds can be an extremely long time if you're suddenly staring at a bad guy whose weapon is loaded while you're still trying to get yours reloaded, or the guy who was providing covering fire while you reload suddenly also runs out of ammo, has some kind of stoppage, gets killed or wounded, etc.
 
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Yimmy       3/17/2008 7:48:19 PM
Unless your defending a fixed fighting position though, your not just going to be sitting their stationary.  If your not assaulting the enemy, you will be withdrawing from them.  Even if you are just part of a base-of-fire, you will still be shifting position, to save your head popping up at the same spot constantly (and hence getting it shot off).

I grant there probably are some scenarios when those two seconds matter, however in general I think it better to stick the spent magazine in a drop pouch or down your smock, if you don't have time to fiddle with a magazine pouch.  With some rifles, such as the SA-80, it is no more time consuming to remove the empty magazine by hand in any case, due to the position of the magazine release catch, and your naturally placing your hand around the magazine to operate it.

 
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