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Subject: Red dot scope
GOP    3/1/2008 3:17:12 PM
Got a question regarding red dot scopes. I have a Yugoslavian M70 (ak variant) that is very accurate as far as AK's go (2 inch groups at 100 yards), and Im thinking of adding a red dot scope to it (using Ultimak's rail system). My question is, what do you guys recommend as far as optics, etc? I am looking at a Kobra, a Aimpoint, EOTech, and a Trijicon. Anyone have any recommendations, advice, etc?
 
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GOP       3/7/2008 12:21:38 AM
Thanks for all the advice guys. Yesterday was my b-day, I turned 18. So, I got a crapload of cash. I ended up getting -
 
Ultimak optic mount - http://www.ultimak.com/M9.htm
 
 
 
 
100 USPSA targets
 
CRKT knife (it was a great deal) - http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/41356-55232-1276.html
 
So, I've just dropped a bunch of money on this thing. I love the gun myself, more than the AR-15 we have (which is longer and harder to handle despite being lighter...they are equally accurate oddly enough). I'll probably eventually updrade the scope. Im getting some hella good accuracy out of it, ESPECIALLY for an AK, so it's worth it in my opinion.
 
Off topic, but anyone ever do any trigger work to their AK's, and do you feel it's worth it? I've field stripped the thing many times, and have done some mods to the pistol grip already, but I feel trigger work may be more difficult. I wanna try to get the trigger pull lighter if possible, but it may not be worth it (in both time and money) for the results I'd  get. Also, I'm sort of a fanatic about cleaning it. Anyone know any good cleaning kits?
 
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YelliChink       3/7/2008 11:24:41 AM
Congratulations and happy birthday!

About the trigger work thing. The trigger is required with a certain amount of force not without a reason. If the trigger pull is too light, the gun may accidentally go off by itself, which is very unsafe. I've seen people who can't deal with trigger pull, but generally not a problem to qualified shooters. This is something that I would rather not to have, and if you really mean it, you should bring it to an honest and experienced armorer and don't be stingy and don't rush on this one. There are some competition triggers for AR type rifles and precision rifles that address the safety issue, but I haven't seen many on Mini-14 or AK type rifles. Usually people did these kind of thing on AK by filing off sear or replacing spring. Both are pretty dangerous.

When I was serving in ROCA (as a conscript), we were taught to control our trigger pull by putting a NT$10 coin on the barrel and dry fire. If the coin didn't fall, then you're doing it right. A lot of people just don't get it, and coins kept falling. I suggest you do the same next time you go to the range with a quarter.  There are three things  for a good shot: breathe control,  focus (with iron sight) and trigger pull.  Always use the soft part of your finger, not the joint, to pull the trigger. There's more about it and I think Horsesoldier is pro on this one. There's a lot of hype in this sport, and I just don't buy all of them.

 
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YelliChink       3/7/2008 11:40:38 AM
Can't say that I know enough about cleaning a gun and don't know much about anything other than AR and M-14 type. I've been using diesel to wash our military rifles, which were 30 years old and abused by conscripts just as long as that. Funny thing is that they still pass biennial inspection from ROCA HQ and still function properly. You can't get any wronger than that. I would say get an AK manual, buy military-grade CLP and do the same thing as taught in military and you'll be fine.
 
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GOP       3/7/2008 1:10:37 PM
Thanks for all the help and great advice Yellichink.
 
My question regarding the trigger was that I simply wanted to get the trigger pull down by maybe a lb or 2lbs. It's not an issue, but down the road I'm thinking of competing in some USPSA events (of course with a more accurate rifle and alot more training), and just wanted to get used to a lighter, more accurate trigger pull. But Im sure I can get plenty more effectiveness out of just pulling the trigger correctly than dropping more money/time on a new trigger and using less effective methods.Thats some great advice on the quarter/dry firing thing. Im definitely gonna try that. Did you do that from a sandbag, or was that from the shoulder?
 
As far as cleaning, do you think a standard rifle cleaning kit would work fine? I field stripped it for the first time 4 days ago, and the bolt/bolt carrier/spring were covered in grease. They shine now. I also used boiled linseed oil on the stock (Yugo stocks are bone dry when you get them typically), and the stock looks alot better.
 
Also, when you were in the ROCA, how many rounds did you typically fire a week? At this point, Im only able to fire about 100-150 rounds a week. Not much, but im not exactly loaded as gas prices are rising, dates are becoming more and more expensive, and my MMA gym is raising prices now that we opened a new gym. Horse, what about you? Whats a typical amount of rounds you fire in a week, and whats typical in the US Army?
 
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GOP       3/7/2008 1:47:48 PM
Before anyone reads my "Shiney" comment and goes crazy , I'd add that Im about to start running wet (using CLP or weapons shield, lube etc) so I don't hurt the thing via friction.
 
Also, anyone ever soak the spring in mineral spirits? Im thinking about it to get off any excess grease. Although grease may be necessary on the spring to avoid damage.
 
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YelliChink       3/7/2008 1:48:55 PM

As far as cleaning, do you think a standard rifle cleaning kit would work fine? I field stripped it for the first time 4 days ago, and the bolt/bolt carrier/spring were covered in grease. They shine now. I also used boiled linseed oil on the stock (Yugo stocks are bone dry when you get them typically), and the stock looks alot better.

 

Also, when you were in the ROCA, how many rounds did you typically fire a week? At this point, Im only able to fire about 100-150 rounds a week. Not much, but im not exactly loaded as gas prices are rising, dates are becoming more and more expensive, and my MMA gym is raising prices now that we opened a new gym. Horse, what about you? Whats a typical amount of rounds you fire in a week, and whats typical in the US Army?



Sorry that I can't give you the round count of average conscript of ROCA. They are not quite keen in training conscripts, because you never know who they are. Though the professional soldiers can get their ear drum damaged........ All I can say is that you already have more round counts then most of ROCA conscripts, probably except those who are designated to "consume excessive ammo." Damn I never got that designation. If you join the military, you'll find that most of the time you are not going to shoot anything, especially when you are in logistic support units. Combat and combat support units get more bullet time.

There is a reason why military wood buttstock are dry. I've learned in ROCA that old people used to have M14/Type57 stock dried under the sun to reduce weight and harden the wood. That's what people would do if they are ordered to carry that damn thing and walk 20 miles.
 
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Horsesoldier       3/8/2008 1:07:57 AM

 


My question regarding the trigger was that I simply wanted to get the trigger pull down by maybe a lb or 2lbs. It's not an issue, but down the road I'm thinking of competing in some USPSA events (of course with a more accurate rifle and alot more training), and just wanted to get used to a lighter, more accurate trigger pull. But Im sure I can get plenty more effectiveness out of just pulling the trigger correctly than dropping more money/time on a new trigger and using less effective methods.Thats some great advice on the quarter/dry firing thing. Im definitely gonna try that. Did you do that from a sandbag, or was that from the shoulder?
 
Don't hear much about trying to spruce up AK triggers, beyond the use of the Tapco G-2 trigger assembly.  Your Yugo may have it installed already -- the new ones Century are building come with it standard, I think.  Even that is not really to help with trigger pull so much as trigger slap when the rifle cycles (definitely not fun when you encounter it).  Like Yellichink suggested, a good gunsmith can probably improve on it from there, but I don't know of any DIY kits or mods I'd advocate trying at home.
 
On the trigger control drill, in the US military it's called a Dime/Washer Drill (as in you can use either to do the drill), and it does definitely teach you to be smooth on the trigger rather than snatching at it.  We always did it from the prone unsupported in basic training if memory serves correctly.
 
As far as cleaning, do you think a standard rifle cleaning kit would work fine? I field stripped it for the first time 4 days ago, and the bolt/bolt carrier/spring were covered in grease. They shine now. I also used boiled linseed oil on the stock (Yugo stocks are bone dry when you get them typically), and the stock looks alot better.
 
Most important thing to remember with Yugo AKs is that they do not have chrome lined barrels, which means you need to do a thorough cleaning after shooting any sort of corrosive-primered ammunition, otherwise you'll get some serious rust very quickly.  With AKs some of the ammo out there is corrosive, and some is not, but basically the best approach is if you're not 100% certain it's non-corrosive, clean the weapon as if it is.
 
The only extra step corrosive ammo requires is you first want to rinse the barrel with something to get the corrosive salts out (dilute ammonia works well -- commercial stuff like Windex with ammonia is a good choice), then rod the barrel with a cleaning patch to sponge up most of the moisture.  After that clean as you would normally with CLP or whatever cleaner and oil you use.
 
Also, when you were in the ROCA, how many rounds did you typically fire a week? At this point, Im only able to fire about 100-150 rounds a week. Not much, but im not exactly loaded as gas prices are rising, dates are becoming more and more expensive, and my MMA gym is raising prices now that we opened a new gym. Horse, what about you? Whats a typical amount of rounds you fire in a week, and whats typical in the US Army?
 
Lots of weeks your typical guy in the Big Army fires exactly zero rounds -- depends a lot on what kind of MOS you have, what kind of unit you're assigned to, and such.  Bare minimum is basic annual qualification requirements (say a couple hundred rounds, if that, yearly) to more if you're a shooter in a combat arms unit.  Same basic deal in SOF units -- lots of weeks with no shooting at all -- only there's lots more ammo per man when you do go to the range.  The only (non-deployed) guys who are doing live fire training every week are going to be the JSOC units that go to (their own) ranges about as frequently as they do unit PT.
 
For me, personally, I don't have a clue what my average weekly round count is throughout the year.  For this past week I shot about 2000 rounds of rifle and about 250 rounds of pistol -- but a lot of weeks I don't shoot at all, and even when I do get to the range, that kind of round count is an unusual (and included a couple days of intensive tuning up on long gun skills), maybe 3-4 times a year sort of thing, not the usual run of things. 
 
 
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GOP       3/8/2008 1:25:26 AM
Good stuff.
 
Yeah, I have a century arms AK, so the trigger is most likely a Tapco. Not that it matters, Im not a big fan of tapco stuff as I think it's sort of a rip off. Another major rip off I have found: Fucking Pro mag polymer magazine. Don't buy ever. Unless you want jams, and lots of em. In 350 rounds or so, I have had about 4 feeding errors. Absolutely no jams or problems with my steel Romy mags.
 
As far as the cleaning, Im gonna start washing it down with hot water to get the salt off of it (from the corrosive ammo). All the ammo I buy claims to be non-corrosive, but I think that is hit and miss and most likely bs. Quality control at Tula isn't very good. I've even found what I believe to be a .308 round in a box of Wolf (yeah, Im serious). Also, instead of using mineral spirits, Im just gonna lube all the stuff with CLP and wipe it down good. Maybe Im being fanatical about cleaning, but I live in a very humid enviroment (Alabama), and I don't want it to rust or lose accuracy.
 
Wow, I was expecting alot more shooting to be done than that. Im certainly not saying Im a better shot or anything at all, Im most likely not, but going weeks without shooting seems like a good way to lose skills? I thought you basically shot daily and did force on force exercises and other combat drills on a very regular basis. Maybe not.
 
Way off topic, but anyone know any good shooting drills to be doing? I basically do accuracy drills, move and shoot drills, lateral shooting drills, and shooting from cover drills. I know none of that can really compare with force on force training or military training, but I make it as realistic as possible. It also keeps it fun.
 
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Horsesoldier       3/8/2008 1:22:31 PM

 

Yeah, I have a century arms AK, so the trigger is most likely a Tapco. Not that it matters, Im not a big fan of tapco stuff as I think it's sort of a rip off. Another major rip off I have found: Fucking Pro mag polymer magazine. Don't buy ever. Unless you want jams, and lots of em. In 350 rounds or so, I have had about 4 feeding errors. Absolutely no jams or problems with my steel Romy mags.
 
Yeah, most TAPCO stuff strikes me as mall ninja-esque, but the G2 trigger is a good bit of kit.  On the mags, I've personally had pretty good luck with Eastern European surplus (for a while you could get a four pack, in a former Warsaw Pact mag pouch, for about $15/mag at gun shows, may still be able to).  Just be sure and dissassemble them and clean them thoroughly, as they sometimes have gunk/cosmoline/grit inside that will jam up an AK solid.


Maybe Im being fanatical about cleaning, but I live in a very humid enviroment (Alabama), and I don't want it to rust or lose accuracy.
 
+1.  SE USA humidity levels can be pretty unkind to firearms, especially if you ever find yourself putting something in storage for an extended amount of time. 
 
Wow, I was expecting alot more shooting to be done than that. Im certainly not saying Im a better shot or anything at all, Im most likely not, but going weeks without shooting seems like a good way to lose skills? I thought you basically shot daily and did force on force exercises and other combat drills on a very regular basis. Maybe not.
 
Depends heavily on what kind of unit you are in, but there are a couple bottlenecks to frequent shooting even in high speed units -- first, obviously, bullets cost money.  Even with government prices I think a 30 round M4/M16 mag runs the government about six or seven dollars every time you load it up, etc.  Second, range facilities are a finite resource as well, unless you're a unit like CAG which owns its own ranges permanently.  For everyone else you've got to coordinate scheduling with everyone else who trains on your post and such.  Even at big posts like Bragg or Benning you've only got so many ranges, and you may have prioritization issues and whatever else (i.e. someone who's deploying next week can bump your unit that isn't deploying off a range, even if your training has been scheduled 12 months out and is the cornerstone of your yearly training plan or whatever).  Finally there's all the other stuff you have to get done as an individual soldier or unit (time down in the motor pool doing maintenance, non-firearms related training, etc.).
 
In theory it's all pretty simple.  In practice it can be nearly impossible from time to time, and is a big reason why operator types and combat arms soldiers in general all pretty much dread promoting up from the shooter level to the staff level. 
 
Way off topic, but anyone know any good shooting drills to be doing? I basically do accuracy drills, move and shoot drills, lateral shooting drills, and shooting from cover drills. I know none of that can really compare with force on force training or military training, but I make it as realistic as possible. It also keeps it fun.
 
What kind of range facilities do you have to train on?  What your local range can provide for and will allow you to do is a big consideration, obviously.
 
Some stuff I'd recommend in terms of basics:
 
1) Work your mag changes.  Work them dry with an unloaded weapon.  Work them with a hot weapon.  Work them some more.  Just when you think you are done, work them some more.  Work on them standing, kneeling, in the prone, stationary and moving at a walk.  Especially with an AK, which is quite a bit less forgiving of any error of technique compared to M4s or other 5.56mm STANAG mag using weapons.  Practice doing them up high, in the "shooter's box" where you can keep your eyes forward towards the threat or at least maintaining situational awareness, rather than looking down at the ground.
 
2) Safety manipulation -- again, especially with an AK this can be a trick.  You want the weapon on safe until you're ready to engage a target.  Finger sweeping with a partially broken grip works well (i.e. partly gripping the pistol grip, with y
 
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GOP       3/10/2008 8:33:57 AM
Thanks for the recommendation to 'Get off the x', it's pretty awesome. I already had a groupee account, so Im on over there. I also see that Mookie is a big time contributer over there and very highly respected. Wonder if they know his history?
 
Yeah, I definitely didn't want any information on combat shooting that could somehow endanger our troops, etc. Definitely not my goal. I shoot for fun, not for survival. So I don't really need to know anything like that. Anyway, got a couple more random question if you don't mind.
 
1) You ever been to Frontsight academy? Im going to Vegas later this year, and would love to either take their 2 day rifle course of their 4 day rifle course, but Im only 18. I don't know if I'm old enough yet or not. In the meantime, Im gonna buy Suarez's (sp) book 'Tactical rifle' and do what I can at home to sort of 'prepare' for his course.
 
2) Have you ever tried bowling pins as targets? I can get 10 for $30, compared to $30 for 100 uspsa targets. Will bowling pins hold up to many shots or not?
 
3) Do you have any recommendations on Chest rigs or anything like that? I need something cheap, and am considering buying this: http://www.redsoldier.com/Russian-Urban-Assault-Vest;jsessionid=0a0101441f4380da158f69984abca3cfcd584697abb5.e3eSc3uNaNuTe34Pa38Ta38Lbx50?sc=2&category=454. It holds 2 30 round AK mags and has room for a few other things, so it looks like a solid deal.
 
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