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Subject: USA #1 in arms ownership! Makes you feel Proud!
RockyMTNClimber    8/28/2007 6:02:37 PM
The right of self defense is universal. UN should mandate all nations allow their citizens access to gun ownership! Check Six Rocky ht**tp://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2007-08-28T174254Z_01_L28348938_RTRUKOC_0_US-WORLD-FIREARMS.xml&pageNumber=0&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage2 By Laura MacInnis GENEVA (Reuters) - The United States has 90 guns for every 100 citizens, making it the most heavily armed society in the world, a report released on Tuesday said. U.S. citizens own 270 million of the world's 875 million known firearms, according to the Small Arms Survey 2007 by the Geneva-based Graduate Institute of International Studies. About 4.5 million of the 8 million new guns manufactured worldwide each year are purchased in the United States, it said. "There is roughly one firearm for every seven people worldwide. Without the United States, though, this drops to about one firearm per 10 people," it said. India had the world's second-largest civilian gun arsenal, with an estimated 46 million firearms outside law enforcement and the military, though this represented just four guns per 100 people there. China, ranked third with 40 million privately held guns, had 3 firearms per 100 people. Germany, France, Pakistan, Mexico, Brazil and Russia were next in the ranking of country's overall civilian gun arsenals. On a per-capita basis, Yemen had the second most heavily armed citizenry behind the United States, with 61 guns per 100 people, followed by Finland with 56, Switzerland with 46, Iraq with 39 and Serbia with 38. Continued... France, Canada, Sweden, Austria and Germany were next, each with about 30 guns per 100 people, while many poorer countries often associated with violence ranked much lower. Nigeria, for instance, had just one gun per 100 people. "Firearms are very unevenly distributed around the world. The image we have of certain regions such as Africa or Latin America being awash with weapons -- these images are certainly misleading," Small Arms Survey director Keith Krause said. "Weapons ownership may be correlated with rising levels of wealth, and that means we need to think about future demand in parts of the world where economic growth is giving people larger disposable income," he told a Geneva news conference. The report, which relied on government data, surveys and media reports to estimate the size of world arsenals, estimated there were 650 million civilian firearms worldwide, and 225 million held by law enforcement and military forces. Five years ago, the Small Arms Survey had estimated there were a total of just 640 million firearms globally. "Civilian holdings of weapons worldwide are much larger than we previously believed," Krause said, attributing the increase largely to better research and more data on weapon distribution networks. Only about 12 percent of civilian weapons are thought to be registered with authorities.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Gun Control Facts   8/29/2007 12:18:44 PM
Dropbear,
 
I think you and I typically agree on things, judging from your long track record of posts. I do disagree with your conclusions about private firearm ownership. I believe the facts support my side of the case.
  
1. US gun related accident rates have been falling significantly since the 1980's, in spite of the fact that gun ownership is at an all time high in the US.
2. There is a significant private industry around the training of private individuals in gun use and ownership. These school's instructors are dominated by law enforcement and military.
3. In the US it is universal that individuals go through a background check to purchase firearms. Many jurisdictions restrict private transfer to accomplish this (which I think is stupid).
4. US State Carry Permits require both a significant background check and competancy certification. Back grounds include local, State, and FBI- which takes up to 100 days to accomplish depending upon how many applications are being sought/renewed when you apply.
5. Tightening gun controls does not reduce crimes. In Australia and The U.K. you find crimes went up with the siezure of weapons.
 
 ht***tp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/470425.stm
UK Politics
http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/nothing.gif" width=1>
Crime rate soars after five-year fall

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/470000/images/_470425_crime300.jpg" width=300 border=0>
Crime costs the UK an estimated £50bn a year
http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/nothing.gif" width=1>
The crime rate is expected to soar for the first rise in five years when official figures are published this week.

Recorded crime is expected to have risen by 20%, with the biggest rises being in burglary and vehicle theft.

There is also expected to be a steep rise in juvenile crime.

The rise is mainly due to a new method of counting crimes reported by the 43 police forces in England and Wales.


[ image: Car thefts are expected to have risen]http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/470000/images/_470425_car150.jpg" width=150>
Car thefts are expected to have risen
Last year 4.5m offences were recorded by the police. Home Secretary Jack Straw said taking account of the new recording methods, that is likely to rise by 09.m to 5.4m this year.

However, the figures produced by the old method, which Mr Straw will publish simultaneously, are also expected to show a rise in crime.

One of the highest increases will be in the Dyfed Powys police area in Wales, where robberies rose 27% and car thefts by 43%.

Under the new counting rules, robberies in Cleveland rose by 61.5%, and theft from cars by 9%. Cambridgeshire will show a 19% increase in robberies.

The figures will also show an overall rise in violence and street crime, particularly in London, where violent crimes rose by more than 160%. In some areas of the capital, street crime has risen by more than 20%.

Under the new counting rules, violent crime has also risen by more than 60% in Kent.


[ image: Street crime has risen by 160% in London]http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/470000/images/_470425_street150.jpg" width=150>
Street crime has risen by 160% in London
Crime now costs Britain more than £50bn a year, according to Home Office estimates.

It measures the average cost of crime at £2,300 per offence for house burglary, £3,800 for commercial burglary and £1,100 for car crime.

The new system aims to count crimes on the basis of one crime per victim.

It means a string of crimes by one offender, such as breaking into a series of cars in a car park, would be counted by the number of victims rather than the number of offenders, bumping up the overall total.

Ministers have warned that the figures are also likely to be pushed up by a rise in the number of young men between the ages of 10 and 24, the group most likely to get involved in crime.

The government is due to announce a £12m scheme to tackle the rise in juvenile crime, when the f

 
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Mechanic       8/29/2007 12:27:00 PM
Statistics doesn't tell everything. Finland number three per capita, but the arms are very different from US. Legally none of them are for self defense and only a very small percent is de facto used as self defense weapons. One can not legally carry guns at public places ready to use and full auto and pocket sized weapons (about smaller than a Glock 17 or similar) are only available to arms collectors. Most of the weapons are for sports hunting.

On the other hand in Finland there is a very much reduced probability to die from bullet (or by any hostile action) compared to US. If every one would have a self defense weapon there would many more unneeded deaths - and murderers.

I'm, in fact. very angry about the comment "The right of self defense is universal. UN should mandate all nations allow their citizens access to gun ownership!"

Please don't make comments like that when you can not understand how things are in other countries.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Statistics can help though...   8/29/2007 12:37:50 PM

Statistics doesn't tell everything. Finland number three per capita, but the arms are very different from US. Legally none of them are for self defense and only a very small percent is de facto used as self defense weapons. One can not legally carry guns at public places ready to use and full auto and pocket sized weapons (about smaller than a Glock 17 or similar) are only available to arms collectors. Most of the weapons are for sports hunting.

On the other hand in Finland there is a very much reduced probability to die from bullet (or by any hostile action) compared to US. If every one would have a self defense weapon there would many more unneeded deaths - and murderers.

I'm, in fact. very angry about the comment "The right of self defense is universal. UN should mandate all nations allow their citizens access to gun ownership!"


Please don't make comments like that when you can not understand how things are in other countries.

In the US the crime rates and rates of violent gun deaths have gone down with the institution of "shall issue" carry permit laws. If the presence of a firearm is the key factor, or a key factor, you should have seen increases in gun deaths in those states that instituted liberal gun ownership laws. In fact the crime rates accross the US have gone steadily down.
My "UN should mandate..." comment speaks to the fact that despots don't do well when citizens have private arms available to them. Of course the UN will do no such thing but the actions they have taken over the last 60 years have not been successful in preventing one genocide.
 
Time to look at the way we do business, I'd say.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Understanding......   8/29/2007 12:41:46 PM
Please don't make comments like that when you can not understand how things are in other countries.<Mechanic
 
Why is it that I may not express an opinion that is different than yours? Is this not a forum for discussion?
 
To you Mechanic I would ask to respect how things are in other countries too. I am happy to have a polite conversation with you about this or any topic.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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YelliChink       8/29/2007 1:25:46 PM
 
Just look at the figure. The crime problem in the US is local and specific to certain ethnic groups. Note that Hispanics are counted as "white" in the crime report. Black on white and white on black murder are not really significant. Murder rate in metropolitan is almost twice as high as murder rate everywhere else. The truth is that if you're not black and hispanic and don't appear in metropolitan ghettos, you are equally likely to get shot as you are in Finland.
 
Machineguns, i.e. selective fire weapons, are highly restricted in the US and no new machineguns are allowed for civilian sale. The old ones are extremely expensive. Machineguns used in crime in the US are either illegally modified or smuggled into the US. AR-15 and other military-looking rifles in US civilian market all have been made so that they cannot be converted into selective fire weapons without extensive machining or plain impossible. Yes, people do hunt with semi-auto rifles/shotguns, and carrying concealed weapons without licence, guns, knives and even hammers, can get you arrested for felony charges.
 
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/rpp/77/
 
According to the report, fists are more dangerous than firearms in Australia, and 90% of murder weapons are illegal. It doesn't prove that guns are necessary in Australia. It simply demonstrates long told criminal behavior: they don't obey the law!
 
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Mechanic       8/29/2007 3:27:18 PM
What annoyed me was the prejudice that was included in your opinion: "If it's best to do it that way in the US, it must be the best way to do it everywhere." Which I consider to be untrue.

Part of my annoyance was because of my lack of understanding how things are in the US. That is I don't believe that things would be better in the US if everyone had a gun, but because of my limited understanding of this subject I didn't include that in my first post.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    One answer for all?   8/29/2007 3:36:11 PM
What annoyed me was the prejudice that was included in your opinion: "If it's best to do it that way in the US, it must be the best way to do it everywhere." Which I consider to be untrue.<Mechanic
 
I believe the concepts I have introduced have merit. I wouldn't say it is best because that is the way it is in most of the US. In fact in some parts of the US the rules for gun ownership are every bit as restrictive as in Europe. Coincidentally, those parts: New Jersey, Washington DC, New York City, and some others, happen to have some of the highest crime rates in our nation. Interesting coincidence wouldn't you say?
 
I realize this is new to many people I am putting it out there for others to think about. Where are you from Mechanic? Finland?
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
 
 
 
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Mechanic       8/29/2007 4:18:48 PM

I believe the concepts I have introduced have merit. I wouldn't say it is best because that is the way it is in most of the US. In fact in some parts of the US the rules for gun ownership are every bit as restrictive as in Europe. Coincidentally, those parts: New Jersey, Washington DC, New York City, and some others, happen to have some of the highest crime rates in our nation. Interesting coincidence wouldn't you say?
 
In Finland there is quite much firearms and quite low crime rate, yet I fail to see how these two things have any connection.

I realize this is new to many people I am putting it out there for others to think about. Where are you from Mechanic? Finland?

That is correct.

Check Six

 

Rocky



 
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flamingknives       8/29/2007 5:00:39 PM
Rocky, your UK example is a little bit off.

It's been nearly forty years since it was legal to hold a firearm for the purpose of self-defence in the UK.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    UK Gun Ban   8/29/2007 6:36:39 PM

Rocky, your UK example is a little bit off.

It's been nearly forty years since it was legal to hold a firearm for the purpose of self-defence in the UK.
I think my analysis is accurate. Attached is one of many studies showing that the banning of handguns in UK all together did nothing. In fact your crime rates have gone up. Including violent crimes.
Check Six
 
Rocky

ht***tp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm
Monday, 16 July, 2001, 04:50 GMT 05:50 UK
Handgun crime 'up' despite ban
Handgunhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1440000/images/_1440764_hand.300.jpg" width=300 border=0>
Handguns were banned following the Dunblane massacre
A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.

The research, commissioned by the Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Shooting, has concluded that existing laws are targeting legitimate users of firearms rather than criminals.

The ban on ownership of handguns was introduced in 1997 as a result of the Dunblane massacre, when Thomas Hamilton opened fire at a primary school leaving 16 children and their teacher dead.

The Centre for Defence Studies at Kings College in London, which carried out the research, said the number of crimes in which a handgun was reported increased from 2,648 in 1997/98 to 3,685 in 1999/2000.

It also said there was no link between high levels of gun crime and areas where there were still high levels of lawful gun possession.

Of the 20 police areas with the lowest number of legally held firearms, 10 had an above average level of gun crime.

And of the 20 police areas with the highest levels of legally held guns only two had armed crime levels above the average.

Smuggling

The campaign's director, David Bredin, said: "It is crystal clear from the research that the existing gun laws do not lead to crime reduction and a safer place.

"Policy makers have targeted the legitimate sporting and farming communities with ever-tighter laws but the research clearly demonstrates that it is illegal guns which are the real threat to public safety."

He said the rise was largely down to successful smuggling of illegal guns into the country.

Weapons have even been disguised as key rings no larger than a matchbox to get them in, he said.

Other sources of guns include battlefield trophies brought back by soldiers, the illegal conversion of replica firearms including blank firing pistols and the reactivation of weapons which had been deactivated.

Ammunition

Examples of illegally manufactured guns include screwdrivers being adapted to fire off one round, he said.

The Metropolitan Police said its official figures showed a 20% drop in armed robberies of commercial premises between April and July this year, compared with the same period last year.

A Scotland Yard spokesman said that, since April 2001, the Flying Squad has arrested 39 people in connection with 34 armed incidents and seized 52 weapons.

Operation Trident, which investigates "black on black" shootings in the UK, has made more than 300 arrests, recovered 100 firearms and 1,500 rounds of ammunition since it was established a year ago.

The Home Office said measures were being taken to tackle handgun crime, including an intensified effort against illegally smuggled weapons.

 

 
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