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Subject: LSAT moving right along
Jeff_F_F    5/31/2007 11:49:33 AM
The latest developments in the Lightweigt Small Arms Technology program have been released by NDIC http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007smallarms/5_9_07/Spiegel_820am.pdf
 
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Jeff_F_F       5/31/2007 1:02:25 PM
 
For those who haven't been following the program the PDF covers some basics, in short they are using an LMG with a rotating bolt licensed from the H&K G11, but rotating around the centerline of the weapon rather than perpendicular to the centerline as the G11 did, thus allowing belted ammunition to be used. The barrel is composite with a ceramic core, if I remember correctly. Composites are used extensively throught the design to reduce weight. Ejection of cases is forward below the barrel.
 
There are two parralel development programs with most details of the weapon for each being similar. One is using composite cased telescoping ammunition based on a very high temperature plastic with a melting point higher than most metals. The other is caseless telescoping ammunition based on a an improved version of the G11 propellant.
 
Currently, the composite cased telescopic ammunition based program has achieved 45% weapon weight reduction compared to the M249 (9.6 lbs vs 17.5 lbs) and 33% ammunition weight reduction (13.6 lbs/600 rnds vs. 20.4 lbs/600 rnds). 4000 composite cased telescopic rounds have been fired. The weapon has been aproved for manned fire and comparisons of its handling and performance compared to the M249 and M16 are being conducted.
 
The caseless program has achieved 43% weapon weight reduction (9.9 lbs - the chamber sealing mechanism is more complex) and 51% ammunition weight reduction (9.8 lbs/600rnds). The caseless program is a lot more technically challenging so it isn't as far along, but when/if the ammunition is perfected most of the development work for the weapon firing the cased telescoping rounds will be able to be applied to the caseless version.
 
One interesting point I noted was that in the pictures of the caseless ammunition two bullets are shown. One looks like a conventional 5.56 mm round, the other is the same diameter but about 25% longer. Looks like a high BC 5.56mm round may be in the works for the new weapon, since the telescoping ammunition design eleminates the issues such rounds typically have in conventional cases.
 
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Horsesoldier       5/31/2007 1:50:31 PM
That longer bullet does look like it is even longer than a 77 grain bullet.  Maybe something in the 90 grain range?  I don't think 5.56mm can go much heavier without rifling starting to cease working.
 
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Professor Fickle       6/2/2007 12:20:30 AM

WOW!

excellent news to hear it meets the most important requirement, COST!
Hopefully, they will make a Assault rifle version with a high rate of fire (2300round/min)
Adapt Metal Storm air bust Grande launcher.

That extra long 5.56 does look like its a 90 grain.

* I know the mk262 77grain open tip match has a B.C. of  .34
what the hell B.C. does a 90grain have? .70 or something that...  
(i know that grendel 6.5mm 123grain needs a 1 in 8".and it has a Ballistic Coeficient of  ~.523)
However, 6.5mm has a long pointed tip , the long 5.56 looks like it has the identical tip of the short 5.56 version but it has a long center section . Won’t that mean it has a center of gravity towards the rear and reduce tumbling dramatically, and as a result fragmentation!?!?

On the positive side it does mean it will be able to fire duplex ammunition
Front bullet the old M193 55grain rear 35grain total 90grain
 
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Jeff_F_F       6/5/2007 6:18:56 PM
My understanding is that the LMG is just the development platform and the goal is a complete family of weapons to replace the entire line of 5.56mm weapons currently in use. The cost targets are really impressive too-hope they pan out.
 
I was noticing the same thing on the shape of the longer bullet compared to the Grendel. One of the really nice things about telescoped ammo though is that since the bullet is completely housed inside the round you can put just about anything in there that is within the length and caliber limits without incurring feed issues. Creates a lot more room for inovation with bullet design. Whatever they go with now can be easily changed later without any investment other than fielding the new ammo, or maybe the replacing the barrel too at worst.
 
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Professor Fickle       6/5/2007 10:11:41 PM

My understanding is that the LMG is just the development platform and the goal is a complete family of weapons to replace the entire line of 5.56mm weapons currently in use. The cost targets are really impressive too-hope they pan out.

SWEET! They will have an option with 7.62x51mm as well...      could you imagine!!!
A ceaseless 7.62x51mm is 9.5gram bullet(150 grain)+3.1gram propellant (47.8 grain )=12.6grams(194. grain) that is the same weight as todays' 5.56x45 round !!!
The gun will be somewhere in the 15 lb range
As for cost, well the Comanche was supposed to cost no more than 30 million that jumped 50.4 million
same with the "cap of a carbine" XM8

I was noticing the same thing on the shape of the longer bullet compared to the Grendel. One of the really nice things about telescoped ammo though is that since the bullet is completely housed inside the round you can put just about anything in there that is within the length and caliber limits without incurring feed issues. Creates a lot more room for inovation with bullet design. Whatever they go with now can be easily changed later without any investment other than fielding the new ammo, or maybe the replacing the barrel too at worst.

How flexible are telescope ammo?
Could you put discarding sabot round in their?(I know the “flagellate” round can NOT be fired on a rifled round{though they got it to work on the 25x137mm Bradley APFSDS })

Question for horserider I guess…?  I’m assuming it has a sectional Density = .2589 What would be the Ballistic coefficient  of a 5.56mm   90 gain boat tail be?
 
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Professor Fickle    IT CUT ME OFF?! system error!?   6/6/2007 10:06:49 PM

My understanding is that the LMG is just the development platform and the goal is a complete family of weapons to replace the entire line of 5.56mm weapons currently in use. The cost targets are really impressive too-hope they pan out.

 

Hell yeah!

Will they make a 7.62mm version of the LSAT, could you just imagine!

 9.75gram (150grain) bullet +3 gram(46.29 grain) propellant = 12.75 gram ceaseless round 7.62mm (192 grain )! THAT IS THE SEME WEIGHT AS A .223!

>  <
The gun will be somewhere in the 15 lb range
As for cost, well the Comanche was supposed to cost no more than 30 million that jumped 50.4 million
same with the "cap of a carbine" XM8

 I was noticing the same thing on the shape of the longer bullet compared to the Grendel. One of the really nice things about telescoped ammo though is that since the bullet is completely housed inside the round you can put just about anything in there that is within the length and caliber limits without incurring feed issues. Creates a lot more room for inovation with bullet design. Whatever they go with now can be easily changed later without any investment other than fielding the new ammo, or maybe the replacing the barrel too at worst.

How flexible are telescope ammo?
Could you put discarding sabot round in their?(I know the “flagellate” round can NOT be fired on a rifled round{though they got it to work on the 25x137mm Bradley APFSDS })

Question for horserider I guess…?  I’m assuming it has a sectional Density = .2589 What would be the Ballistic coefficient  of a 5.56mm   90 gain boat tail be?
 
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